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« Friday Cephalopod: Behold the shadow of your doooooom! | Main | Uh-oh…we aren't being nice and respectful of the faithful »

Episode XXXVIII: Distracted in Oz

Category: Open Thread
Posted on: March 12, 2010 6:14 AM, by PZ Myers

I am remiss in my duties. The last episode of the endless thread has expanded to excessive size while I was off frolicking in the antipodes. In my defense, I have been distracted by the remarkable habits of Australians: every time my hands were empty, they would put a beer in it. I once made the mistake of having both hands briefly unoccupied, and received two beers for my trouble.

The Pharyngufest with Chloe here in Melbourne has been captured on video, right here. Unfortunately, I don't remember my performance at all—infinite beers, remember.

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Comments

#1

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:29 AM

Well, that is about as plausible as the storyline of the original.

:)

#2

Posted by: ursulamajor Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:31 AM

You've never looked finer, sir. The leotard is the look for you.

#3

Posted by: triskelethecat Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:32 AM

The infinite beers sound interesting (even though I am not a beer drinker). Have to wait till I get home from work to see the video; my employer blocks them and all I have is a large white space.

#4

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:41 AM

bam!
teh portcullis.

lookin' good there, Professor.

#5

Posted by: DLC Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:49 AM

Beerdance!
most people are too well basted to dance after infinite beers.

#6

Posted by: Daks Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:56 AM

You'd drink to excess too if you live in a country whose only claim to variety is the ways in which it's inhabitants can kill you.

#7

Posted by: Knockgoats Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:58 AM

Here is Quackalicious' reference to Cochrane studies:

Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2008 Oct 8;(4):CD006535. “Touch therapies may have a modest effect in pain relief. More studies on HT and Reiki in relieving pain are needed” But we all knew that. Moms kiss and make it better. People need a hug. There are chemical pathways fed by human touch.

So here we have a Cochrane review, which says being touched may have a modest effect on pain relief. Wow! People like being touched sympathetically when they are not feeling good! Stop the presses!!1eleventy-one!!).

Distance energy work is a different matter. Let’s call it prayer because that’s the most common form. I’m citing the 2007 Cochrane because the 2009 Cochrane has other Cochrane researchers yelling at them. “The evidence presented so far is interesting enough to justify further study into the human aspects of the effects of prayer. However it is impossible to prove or disprove in trials any supposed benefit that derives from God's response to prayer.” Can you guess the prejudice of the author? The 2009 Cochrane writers think prayer studies are a waste of time, can you guess what they believe?

Quackalicious is characteristically vague about the Cochrane reviews he is referring to, giving neither link nor publication details - so this is not, contrary to what he says, a citation. Googling "Cochrane review prayer" brings up only a 2009 review. However, there appears to have been an earlier version, by three of the four 2009 authors, Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007; (1): CD000368, which I can't get the text of. In fact, this in turn seems to be an update of previous reviews.

So far as I can make out, both the 2007 and 2009 versions were subject to excoriating criticism, and the authors have revised the latter yet again. Here is the latest revised version Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health, Roberts L, Ahmed I, Hall S, Davison A, which is the only actual text I can find.
Here are criticisms of the original. Here is another. The most amusing point is that the authors included in an earlier version a spoof article printed in an issue of the BMJ made up largely of such articles. This was the one that gave the best results. In the latest version, it looks as though the authors (who are apparently all Christian or Muslim, so I don't know what the Quack is quacking about in his hints about their beliefs) have finally conceded that the whole thing is a crock of shit. Time for you to do the same and quack off, Quackalicious.

#8

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:00 AM

Ha! This is a good time of the day to let me catch up instead of triggering the dreaded frontpage effect right away! :-)

Kauai used to have a duck that thought it was a kiwi and/or a platypus. Somehow I don't read enough blogs, so I missed that one when it was published in November <cringe>

Have to wait till I get home from work to see the video; my employer blocks them and all I have is a large white space.

Is it your employer, or is it your browser and/or Flash player? Safari 1.3.2 did that at irregular and unpredictable occasions; Opera 10.10 shows embedded YouTube videos but not vimeo ones; IE8 shows everything.

#9

Posted by: alex.powermax Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:18 AM

Hah! That's my mate and neighbour in the leotard. It's a small country. Oh, and I for one welcome our new beer drinking, vegemite swilling tentacled overlord. Hope ytou enjoy your stay in Oz, PZ.

#10

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:20 AM

just realized I inadvertently started a haiku and never finished. Lessee:

Bam! Teh portcullis.
Lookin' good there, Professor.
An Oz-dance subThread.

#11

Posted by: Brian English Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:20 AM

You drank infinite Carlton Draughts? Love the add, but no way you drank many of that stuff. Reminds me of my mispent youth. There was a lot of egregious comments about Vegemite earlier. Those comments really were earned by CUB. Anyway, if you decide you need a break, my offer to come out to Mernda and see the roos, galahs, and whatever is still open. I don't think you'll take it up however. With all those uni students biding for your time.

#12

Posted by: tdanielmidgley Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:25 AM

Ha, North Americans! PZ is blogging in our time zone now, and I can finally make comment number < 100 on a Pharyngula thread!

Unfortunately I have nothing to say. Except that Chloe's was a fine place to meet more atheists than I have knowingly seen in one place.

#13

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:26 AM

Thank you, Kg, for tracking down and addressing El Pato's pseudocitations. It was bothering me that 'we' are always asking for peer-reviewed literature as evidence, and then when somebody kind of mentions some, it got blown off. I was going to try to respond this weekend, but I am most grateful that you have made that unnecessary.

#14

Posted by: triskelethecat Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:40 AM

@ David M.: No, it's my employer. Our lovely IT guys used to watch Youtube too much so the senior management declared all sorts of things off limits and block them (can't see LOLcats imbeds either, for instance).

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if the flash player issue is involved also. We are still on IE6 at work...I use Firefox at home on both the PC and the Macs.

#15

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:47 AM

And don't forget the STEP study.

BACKGROUND: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. METHODS: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality. RESULTS: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
#16

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:20 AM

This comment entered solely to say, like #12, that I caught an incarnation while it was still young and tender.

#18

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:30 AM

windy, @ #246 of the previous iteration:

I haven't used STRUCTURE in the past, but this weird prior choice regarding the number of populations in which to bin individuals (K) seems suspect to me. I had always assumed that this was parameterized like any other distribution to be estimated in a Bayesian analysis.

What prior choice? You don't have to predetermine K to use that program, it gives you the best fit. (But sometimes different numbers of K fit the data about equally well.)

This appears to be incorrect. The major studies under discussion (Rosenberg and Bamshad) did in fact have to predetermine K. Deborah Bolnick, mentioned in the Duster video, has a chapter in Revisiting Race in a Genomic Age (2008) that describes what they did, how estimating the best-fit K works, and the problems with how the data were analyzed and presented. It, "Chapter 4: Individual Ancestry Reference and the Reification of Race as a Biological Phenomenon," is available in the Google Books preview (begins at page 70).

#19

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:44 AM

Topic shift - what do people think about this?

Anna Arrowsmith, porn director, selected as parliamentary candidate

#20

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:51 AM

Topic shift - what do people think about this?

Anna Arrowsmith, porn director, selected as parliamentary candidate

Could she be worse than some many of our current politicians? I'll take a film director (who at least (even for porn films (not that I've seen that many (though I did recently watch one while perusing my autographed copy of Dante's Inferno (meant as humour (see towards the tail end of the last neverending source of amusement))))) should have a clue how to get from the setup to the climax) over the whore who just does whatever the john lobbyist says.

#21

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:55 AM

Anna Arrowsmith ?

Well if the Tories can have merchant bankers as candidates, why can't the Lib Dems have a porn film director ? Seems to me that directing porn films is a far more noble profession than merchant banking.

#22

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:55 AM

SC, thanks for mentioning that book and its availability via Google. That looks like a much more balanced, better-rounded, wider-ranging and far more nuanced treatment than the SSRC essays you usually link.
Wish I had time for careful reading of it.

#23

Posted by: hen3ry Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:09 AM

Walton: I think that anyone should be able to stand for election. Additionally, it seems that she is very different from most MPs, as she is not a lawyer. I am all for anything that reduces the proportion of lawyers in the commons is a good thing.

#24

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:11 AM

Wish I had time for careful reading of it.

Perhaps you would if you took some off from the contentless, condescending sniping. Just a thought.

#25

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:15 AM

Topic shift - what do people think about this?

Well Italy did it.

#26

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:15 AM

I would also add that if the Conservatives were to get all sniffy about moral character the Lib Dems need only mention two names. Jeffrey Archer and Jonathan Aitkin. They could also mention Lord Ashcroft, as he seems to be another Tory with problems with honesty.

#27

Posted by: Michael Osborne Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:18 AM

Always enjoy Carlton Draught ads.

Especially like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYZs7VJaAlQ

:)

#28

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:25 AM

Porn star Mary Carey ran for California governor. So it has been done.

#29

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:25 AM

Bah crap

Firefox 3.6 update and the Text formatting toolbar isn't supported at the current build,

son

of

a

#30

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:29 AM

Firefox 3.6 update and the Text formatting toolbar isn't supported at the current build,

BDC, Go directly to the homepage of the toolbar, which is here. The version there works with 3.6.

#31

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:31 AM

Rev. BDC, it appears that the developer of TFT has an upgrade for 3.6, but it isn't linked to the Firefox addon collection. The addon can be downloaded from the developers site.

#32

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:31 AM

Yeah I checked that and that's the version I have installed, and Firefox is shitting all over it.

Going to try a re-install

#33

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:34 AM

BDC, Go directly to the homepage of the toolbar, which is here. The version there works with 3.6.

Nope sorry I was wrong, that was not the version I had installed.


Thanks Matt.

#34

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:36 AM

No Problem BDC.

#35

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:37 AM

Oh I can only dream of the backlash this is going to cause but oh well.


Anyone interested in a gentlemanly wagerized Pharyngula NCAA bracket?

We could set up one on ESPN

#36

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:43 AM

First evening of the GAC saw the meeting of Kel, Wowbagger, Bride of Shrek and Rorschach with Pharyngulites like debinoz, Charlie Foxtrot, that Pope with the too long name, Peter McKellar, speedweasel and others at the Chloe bar.Then we had a rather light-hearted comedian type of start to the convention, especially with the contribution of Catherine Deveny, who was just hilarious.

And we even met a crazy person in the streets who handed out Comfort style madness cartoons from livingwaters, a Comfort subsidy of some sort....

Dr Myers attended, but he had been handed too many beverages by friendly Pharyngulites for his heart to really be in it I think...:-)

Photos to follow, we're working on it...:-)

#37

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:44 AM

I am going to do a first for me, and give you all a taste of the music I am currently listening to.

The Trumpton Riots

#38

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:45 AM

Wish I had time for careful reading of it.
Perhaps you would if you took some off from the contentless, condescending sniping. Just a thought.

Or, better yet, stop grading stuff. Grades are a poor reflection of learning anyway, right?

*Looks at pile of exams next to desk*

Yeah. Ditch the grading, son. Take your shoes off, and let them piggies breathe. Spring break starts today (for me, at 10am CST)...headin' to the nursery to by myself some planties! Then I'm heading to the beer store to by myself some brewksies! S'gonna be awesome.

#39

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:47 AM

Reverend:

Since I started reading (and (occasionally) commenting) on Pharyngula, I have noticed the occasional comment (not that I can quote (or even misquote) one right now off the top of my pointy little head) referring to atheists and/or scientists as elitists who are out of touch with mainstream 'Merca. I get the same occasional comment on my piddly little blog. To suggest that such out of touch elitists would be interested in the NCAA tournament (yes, I am interested) blows the whole elitist and out of touch meme out of the water (which is needed for the zebra fish).

Yes. I, an out of touch elitist ivory-tower snob am interested in a Pharyngula bracket.

Pharyngula bracket. Sorry. I just had a vision of a squid hanging on a wall.

#40

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:49 AM

Alright, that's two. I'll see about setting one up and people can email me about log in details.

You'll have to sign up on ESPN of course.

#41

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:50 AM

Antiochus: And certain beers are very good for attracting and drowning garden slugs. Beer and gardening. Beer garden. Biergarten.

Sounds good.

#42

Posted by: Kel, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:52 AM

Photos to follow, we're working on it...:-)
It'll just be easier for PZed to put the photo up in his own time - it'll be worth any wait.
#43

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:00 AM

It'll just be easier for PZed to put the photo up in his own time - it'll be worth any wait.

Says the man sitting next to me on the couch typing away on my laptop...:-) And PZ, feel free to post them, I dont mind, neither does the Bride...

Nite Nite

#44

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:01 AM

Hooray! At last! I can watch cricket wthout having to give Rupert Murdoch any money.

Dunno if you can watch ITV4's Indian Premier League coverage outside the UK.

YouTube's coverage is "experiencing some technical difficulties".

#45

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:05 AM

Topic shift - what do people think about this? Anna Arrowsmith, porn director, selected as parliamentary candidate

I suppose what I thought of her would depend on her position on whatever political issues I cared about given I was living there.

She sounds like an interesting woman.

#46

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:12 AM

(Why have (comments (here) (started to look (like they're) (written in (Lisp (Common or (otherwise)?))))))

#47

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:15 AM

Walton's coming along quickly! Just recently he thought toilet paper was an unsuitable topic. Now he wants to talk about porn?

What next? Will he be ditching that bow tie?
(I don't actually know if he wears one, but that's my mental image). :)

#48

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:15 AM

I suppose what I thought of her would depend on her position on whatever political issues I cared about given I was living there.

You would probably find yourself in agreement with much of the Lib Dem platform, as would most of the regulars here. Walton being a notable exception.

#49

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:17 AM

Walton's coming along quickly! Just recently he thought toilet paper was an unsuitable topic. Now he wants to talk about porn?

We will have him resigning from the Conservative Party soon.

#50

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:23 AM

(Why have (comments (here) (started to look (like they're) (written in (Lisp (Common or (otherwise)?))))))

Because people here are behind the times. CAN I HAZ LOLCODE?

#51

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:27 AM

Just recently he thought toilet paper was an unsuitable topic

Did he really? Walton? Any comments, sir?

#52

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:32 AM

Eh. I'd rather write in Ook!.

Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook? Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook? Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook? Ook. Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook. Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook.
#53

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:33 AM

Benjamin: Just lampooning my (admittedly weird) writing style. My blog is called (((Billy))) The Atheist because of that (lack of) writing style.

Ol'Greg: Behind the times? I'm an public historian specializing in steam-era technology. If it happened after the 1950s, it is modern and up to date. I live behind the times.

#54

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:34 AM

The A-Team has been turned into a remake for this summer. An instant strike against it is that they have chosen Liam Neeson to be Hannibal.

LIAM FUCKING NEESON?

#55

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:38 AM

Behind the times? I'm an public historian specializing in steam-era technology.

Really? Because that... is...awesome.

#56

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:42 AM

LIAM FUCKING NEESON?

"Oi love it whaen a plan coms togeth--"

"CUT!"

#57

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:46 AM

RBDC #35

Count me in...

#58

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:47 AM

You lucky riders of the NYC subway system just got a new annoyance, an anti-choice ad campaign. Because Abortion Changes You!

I was oh so touched by this. My wife gets depressed around the anniversary of our daughter's abortion. Can you please clarify? Was it that your wife had a fetus aborted or that your daughter had an abortion?

#59

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:49 AM

RBDC #35

you can email me details...

celticevolution at gmail...

#60

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:50 AM

Benjamin, I had no idea that the Librarian was so talkative.

Ook.

#61

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:54 AM

RBDC #35:

I checked your vox site and cannot contact you via the site. Could you email the details to billytheatheist[at]gmail.com ?

A-Team? A-Team? If ever a crappy TV show cried out to never be made into a movie, that would be it. I was in middle and high school when it was on TV and even back then (when I was young and stupid) I thought is was poorly written, badly acted, cheaply done, and a remarkably dim premise (of course, that may be my elitism showing through).

#62

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:58 AM

Re: steam era technology

Steam-punk guitar!!

Don't ask me how that would work in reality, but I still love it.

#63

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:00 AM

Abortion Changes You!


WTF?

So does sex, a beer, living for five years,learning to drive,a tooth extraction,marriage, divorce,moving from your family, gaining a sibling,major illnes,unwanted pregnancy, wanted pregnancy,the birth of a child.

Maybe we should outlaw living.

#64

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:03 AM

Ol'Gregg:

Really? Because that... is...awesome.

My Dad always said that the key to happiness in life is finding what you like to do and then find someone stupid enough to pay you for doing it. A corollary is (of course) finding what you actually like before accumulating the detritus of maturity.

KOPD:

Soldered copper pipe would not work too well with the steam pressures used on our locomotives. Generally, we run at up 150psi saturated steam, or (on our road locomotives) 180 to 210psi superheated.

Additionally, judging from the gauge at the upper left (showing (it appears) 0psi), the last gig must have been at a place with absolutely no atmosphere.

#65

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:04 AM

I guess because that most people finally realize that the abortion/breast cancer link was contrived and so some moved on to something even more nebulous and less likely to be disproven by studies.

#66

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:06 AM

ol'Greg: Of course, when your a baby, Mom and Dad change you.

#67

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:18 AM

Ok sent you both emails from ESPN with the log in info. You'll have to create an espn account if you don't have one.

Yeah I only signed up for Vox to be able to log in here.

bigdumbchimp [at] gmail

#68

Posted by: Haruhiist Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:20 AM

@Benjamin Geiger:

this part of the world says hello back.

Ook.

#69

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:31 AM

Maybe we should outlaw living.

Not a bad idea. I mean imagine a series of posters and ads that echo the message:


Graduation Changes You

Our son went from being a high school football star to a kid needing to find a summer job to help pay for next year's college tuition in less than a month.


Getting Married Changes You

We thought the dress and the flowers and the limos and the band would make our wedding one of the most special days of our lives. Er, it was, but now we can't afford to go to the movies.


Getting a Job Changes You

He used to love to sit on that couch all day and play GTA IV. Now I tear up whenever I look at those empty cushions Mondays through Fridays from 7:45 AM to 5:00 PM.

#70

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:38 AM

PDF of the paper about the "almost blind mole-duck" of comment 8.

And certain beers are very good for attracting and drowning garden slugs.

And wasps.

Ol'Greg: Behind the times? I'm an public historian specializing in steam-era technology. If it happened after the 1950s, it is modern and up to date. I live behind the times.

Bah. I, sir, can't tell the difference between last week and last ice age !!

Now to catch up with the latest subthread.

#71

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:42 AM

Reading Pharyngula Changes You

He used to be so arrogantly sure of his libertarian viewpoints and unwavering in his faith. It breaks my heart to see him now accepting that gays have the same rights as everyone else. I die a little inside when I see him asking for evidence and citation instead of accepting biblical truth. I hardly recognize the once blissfully ignorant, morally bankrupt, self-indulgent little god-bother I once knew. I'm afraid that person is gone forever...

#72

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:42 AM

Aging Changes You

I get depressed now every time I see a desert menu.

#73

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:42 AM

Not having an abortion changes you. Duh. Eating lunch changes you. Everything you could possibly do could possibly change you. Educate yourself on how it could change you and make an informed fucking decision (if it's your decision to make).

Brought to you by Captain Obvious.

#74

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:44 AM

I get depressed now every time I see a desert menu.

Probably all that sand! It is never nice to eat.

#75

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:46 AM

Alternate version of 71

He used to be so productive and yet still have free time for personal projects. It breaks my heart to see him wasting away as he follows the undying thread. I die a little inside when I see him constantly refreshing the page. I'm afraid the person I knew is gone forever...

ymmv

#76

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:50 AM

Just a thought.

Actually, that wsa intended originally as a sincere thanks for the reference to what I really do think looks excellent. If it came out different (as, I acknowledge, it did), it's because of a lack of time put into considering content.

My opinions about the SSRC site aside, I wasn't sniping at you.

#77

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:53 AM

Jefferson Airplane ~ Crown of Creation

You are the Crown of Creation

You are the Crown of Creation
and you've got no place to go.

Soon you'll attain the stability you strive for
in the only way that it's granted
in a place among the fossils of our time.

In loyalty to their kind
they cannot tolerate our minds.
In loyalty to our kind
we cannot tolerate their obstruction.

Life is Change
How it differs from the rocks
I've seen their ways too often for my liking
New worlds to gain
My life is to survive
and be alive
for you.


#78

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:58 AM

All that you touch
You Change.

All that you Change
Changes you.

The only lasting truth
is Change.

God
is Change.

Earthseed: The Book Of The Living

Octavia Butler was such a great writer.

#79

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:01 PM

Going back to the thread of a couple of days ago (the one with the dancing penises (not something I write every day)): Brian Switek over at Laelaps has a post about even more bizarre Ediacaran fauna. Pop over, look at the life restoration of Herpetogaster collinsi and then think Freud.

Neat beast, but weird.

#80

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:02 PM

In the previous chapter of the endless thread, Quackalicious referred to me as "Lynn, OM", and he thanked me (OMG, I am mortified) for doing actual research in my comment 510.

I repeat here my comment 510, if only to clear my name, which is Lynna. (I have added some bolding for emphasis):

Actually, the Quackmeister did provide references to studies earlier, but those studies were dismissed, in detail. But the Quackmeister did not let the dismissals sink in because that would require, you know, integrity.
     Most of the Quackmeisters references to studies appear here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/episode_xxxv_under_the_underpi.php#comment-2326879 That's in the underwear thread (two chapters ago), comment #588.
     'Tis provided a link to a reply in comment 592.
     In the chapter that followed the underwear (The Predictable Descent), Quack complained in comment #70 that his studies had not been refuted. He received answers @81, @86, and @314 from Sastra; and @94 from David M.
     Then Quack provided more references to a homeopathy document here, in comment 290. He also blathered on about how he had not casually thrown away the Rosa study on therapeutic touch (he capitalizes "therapeutic touch", but I can't bring myself to do likewise). And he defended nurses who continued the practice despite the fact that it had been shown to be a fraud. This is the comment to which Sastra replied @314.
     And ... there's more, but I can't be arsed to ferret them out. Suffice it to say that no matter what refutation you provide, what skeptical sources you refer the Quackmeister to, there will be no dent made in his confidence. And, he will provide references to yet more questionable studies and blatant woo.
What I get from all this is that the Quack does not read the replies carefully, and he does not follow links that send him to refutations.
#81

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:04 PM

@Celtic_Evolution (71) and KOPD (75):

Hey! Those both fit me exactly! Reading Pharyngula does change you!

#82

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:08 PM

Quick work-related question: You know the glass retorts which, when placed on the palm of your hand, cause the liquid inside to boil and travel up a coiled stem? Anyone know what they are called?

#83

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:09 PM

@iambilly:

The glass retorts which, when placed on the palm of your hand, cause the liquid inside to boil and travel up a coiled stem.

#84

Posted by: Donnie B. Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:11 PM

@iambilly:

Thermometers.

#85

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:13 PM

No, these are demonstration units with coloured liquid -- I would guess alcohol in a semi-vacuum to lower the boiling point?

#86

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:22 PM

has most exquisite canines.

I've never heard even my dentist say anything quite that particularly kinky.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not the one with the vampire fetish. I just… provide some fuel for it, to mix metaphors.

I think the most parsimonious explanation for pretty much anything Sheril Kirshenbaum says, does, or posts is naivete.

:-D

I know! How about we have a special Jeopardy show where the contestants would be primarily anyone directly related to the deceased, and the rest chosen by random. Then they could all compete for the money left by the deceased!

answers would be along the lines of important things to have knowledge of in order to be considered a truly worthy citizen, like knowledge of economics, science, politics, history, etc.

Who wouldn't watch that?

Hmmmm. <strokes inexistent beard>

That reminds me of the time my dad threatened to wash out my mouth with soap. Rather than being intimidated, I was intrigued, and went into the bathroom to sample all the varieties. The oatmeal almond soap was the best.

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

thanks suzie, I didn't know about this either. sounds interesting!

Now there's an understatement. Looks like the differences in sex determination between mammals and birds go way beyond the opposite systems of sex chromosomes, and some of the implications are very far-reaching.

Great case of fairly basic research potentially leading to lots of applications.

Um.

Uh

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20000176-504083.html

X-D

TSIB.

AAAAaaaaAAAAAaaa!

I just mindlessly updated firefox, and now my Text Formatting Toolbar doesn't work anymore! *grumble*

I feel like a command-line freak. =8-)

#87

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:25 PM

@iambilly:

Wouldn't be an alembic, would it?

#88

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:27 PM

Looks like there is a Knija Knitter wannabe.

#89

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:31 PM

Kevin: Thank you. A fellow worker is writing up an education proposal for a grant and was searching for a name. I think alembic is it.

[pause for Google]

Probably is the name.

#90

Posted by: sammywol Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:32 PM

It's futile to try and keep up with you keen, bacon fuelled endless threaders. I was gping to say, on the topic of leotarded males reinventing Flashdance has everyone seen Robert Webb's version? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lz6k5Zg2wA

This was part of a series of celebrities doing dances for charity and Webb was disturbingly good in his wig and leotard. He had to have been good as I don't think anything less could have beaten out the moustached guy in the pink frock doing Dirty Dancing. Don't want to bugger up the comment with linkspam but it is in the menu to the right of the above link.

#91

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:33 PM

Dang, looks like I need to fumigate my work keyboard again. Kninja Knitter

#92

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:37 PM

Blockquote fail at the top of comment 86. Retry:

has most exquisite canines.

I've never heard even my dentist say anything quite that particularly kinky.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not the one with the vampire fetish. I just… provide some fuel for it, to mix metaphors.

Brian Switek over at Laelaps has a post about even more bizarre Ediacaran fauna.

It's not Ediacaran. Herpetogaster, which is a big surprise indeed (except for being a filter-feeder), is from the Burgess Shale (Middle Cambrian), and Kiisortsoqia, the Platonic idea of an arthropod, is from the Early Cambrian of northern Greenland.

#93

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:38 PM

Sorry for the Ediacaran -- I claim liberal arts education?

#95

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:40 PM

Kiisortoqia. Without s. *grumble*

At least the retry worked. And the Kninja Knitter sounds interesting… if insane…

#96

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:42 PM

Somebody else here has a vampire fetish?

#97

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:46 PM

Yo, Lynn @80:

You said "Actually, the Quackmeister did provide references to studies earlier...because that would require..integrity. Most of the Quackmeisters references to studies...had not been refuted.
Then Quack provided more references...And he defended nurses. Suffice it to say that...he will provide references to yet more...studies."

You're obviously a fan. Might as well cop to it.

#98

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:46 PM

Matt Penfold (re Walton)

We will have him resigning from the Conservative Party soon.

Like this one?


#99

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:52 PM

Brigham Young University Is Nation's Most Popular National University
That's the story from U.S. News & World Report. The blockquote below is the simplified version from KSL, a mormon-owned news outlet:

Brigham Young University nudged past Harvard University for the title of most popular school.
     U.S. News & World Report bestowed the title on BYU last week, basing its decision on the number of students accepted to the school who actually choose to attend.
     Each year, 78 percent of those accepted to BYU actually end up going to school there. Harvard came in second with 76 percent.
     The University of Utah ranked No. 17 with 51 percent
The story doesn't mention that LDS Church leaders have encouraged parents to tell their children that they will pay for them to attend BYU, but will not pay for them to attend any other University. None of the other pressures put on young people to attend are mentioned. Nor is the fact that BYU is subsidized by the church to make it cheaper for returned missionaries to attend; that children of General Authority members attend for free; that young women are sent there to find husbands... you get the picture. The cult school is homophobic, requires religion classes, and spies on students, even those that live off-campus.
#100

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:57 PM

Kiisortsoqia, the Platonic idea of an arthropod

How pleasant to meet such an ideal just after having dissected a crayfish!

#101

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:58 PM

@Lynna, OM:

Wait... a news story that leaves out details? No, really?

#102

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 12:59 PM

Janina: Octavia Butler was such a great writer.

Amen. I was about to say "depressing, but/and great" but the really depressing thing is that I think I've read everything she wrote. Or published, anyway.

At least Kage Baker has a few posthumous things in the queue. Fuck death, anyhow.

iambilly: Just off the top of my head, I'd go to Archie McPhee's and see if they have one and what they call it. Or maybe one of those Whoozits Science mailorder joints.

#104

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:00 PM

Brownian - I forgot to say thanks for describing your experiences in CBT a few threads back. I've always been fascinated by it (even if I've had trouble trying to figure out exactly what it is); moreover, I've never really had the chance to see it in action.

#105

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:04 PM

Human cells exhibit foraging behavior like amoebae and bacteria.

Doesn't sound surprising, but the link doesn't work.

Reindeer stop the clock to cope with polar days and nights.

Awesome…

Malicious Software: Hiding Honeypot Traps from Botnet Drones.

Not only interesting in itself – a click away lies this report of ice at sea level at ~ 10° N or S (probably S, but I'm guessing) 716.5 Ma ago, a(n incredibly precise) date that is connected to the opening of the Pacific Ocean.

Like this one?

Wow. Just in time for the Thread. As if arranged! Does he read it…?

children of General Authority members attend for free

:-o

I wouldn't have expected the elitism to be that blatant.

#106

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:06 PM

Mr Fire/Brownian,

1) Is that CBT as in "Cock and Ball Torture" or CBT as in "Cognitive Behaviout Therapy"?

2) If it's the latter, can you point me to the thread/rough location, I'd like a read of that.

Cheers

Louis

P.S. If it's the former, my place 10:30pm Thursday. Bring lube and a vicar.

#107

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:08 PM

that second s is struck out, and I forgot the ital tags

#108

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:10 PM

Malicious Software: Hiding Honeypot Traps from Botnet Drones.

Meh. Call me when they actually start to tackle the much easier Honeypot Detection Method of detecting Virtual Machines running completely exposed to exploits. Monitoring malicious activity in every node of a botnet (hundreds of thousands of computers) adds a lot of overhead, when there are easier ways of detecting and blacklisting honeypot IPs while in the process of probing for vulns (as opposed to adding an entire new layer of checks/safeguards). Some security guys assume blacklisting VMs won't work because servers are lucrative targets and generally run on VMs nowadays, but "servers are always on" is moot in the days of pervasive broadband connections.

#109

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:10 PM

in that comment way the hell up there, I mean

#110

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:12 PM

Brownian - I forgot to say thanks for describing your experiences in CBT a few threads back.

My pleasure MrFire. Even when I was actively in therapy I never shied away from talking about it, partially because I've never been overly concerned with what constitutes appropriate topics for discussion vs. TMI, and partially because through doing so I've encouraged a number of people to admit to me that they had been considering therapy and ask me how to get started. So I kind of see it as making lemonade with some of the lemons I was given in childhood.

#111

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:13 PM

Glenn Beck has stirred up the wrong nest of vipers.

In the wake of Glenn Beck's admonishment to his viewers that they leave their church if it engages in "social justice," the Christian community is rising up to condemn his heresy. This could spell trouble for TV's most famous conspiracy-obsessed, cult-minded, race-baiting, rodeo-clown, crybaby. In fact, it may exacerbate his already severe persecution complex to the point that he envisions these critics as the coming of his tormentors with a giant wooden cross and a crown of thorns....
     By demanding that Christians leave any church that practices social justice, Beck is asking himself to leave his own church. And from the sound of it, I don't think the rest of the congregation would mind terribly much if he did.

As far as Beck leaving the mormon church -- not going to happen. He actually fits in very well, and far better than some mormons would like to admit. While some mormon commenters in the story tout the LDS Church's social justice emphasis, color me skeptical. Mormons claim that the LDS Church is all up into that social justice stuff -- never mind their stance on gay marriage, and please forget their past treatment of blacks and of Native Americans. And please ignore their present treatment of women. And please don't mention the miniscule percentage they spend on humanitarian aid (estimated at about 1.5% or less. See http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/budget/). And don't compare that humanitarian aid to their $3 billion mall project.

It will be fun, however, to watch even more advertisers pull their ad dollars from the Glenn Beck show. Glenn, please do continue to alienate the Christians. Thank you.

#112

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:15 PM

Ditch the grading, son. Take your shoes off, and let them piggies breathe. Spring break

soon come

#113

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:16 PM

Brigham Young University nudged past Harvard University for the title of most popular school. U.S. News & World Report bestowed the title on BYU last week, basing its decision on the number of students accepted to the school who actually choose to attend.

Why would "popular" measured by the % of students accepted to the school who choose to attend, be a good thing ?

Let's take an extreme example:

200 complete morons apply to the really crap school for quacks and their admirers, school that only teaches how to become a certified quack. 100 of them are accepted, and because they are complete morons and aren't accepted elsewhere, all choose to attend that school. So it scores 100% on the popularity contest, the school for quacks and their admirers is the most "popular" school in the country.

#114

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:20 PM

Mormons claim that the LDS Church is all up into that social justice stuff -- never mind their stance on gay marriage, and please forget their past treatment of blacks and of Native Americans. And please ignore their present treatment of women. And please don't mention the miniscule percentage they spend on humanitarian aid (estimated at about 1.5% or less. See http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/budget/). And don't compare that humanitarian aid to their $3 billion mall project.

BUT.....BUT.....


WE GO ON MISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111


/mormon

#115

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:24 PM

Louis, here's the link to my comment.

As for Thursday, I don't think I'm ready for that yet. I'm still in the 'flicking myself through the denim in the office supply closet' stage, and I think I'm still a ways away from the sitting in a seatless chair for a rousing session with a carpet-beater à la Casino Royale.

#116

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:27 PM

@Brownian:

Oh now you've done it. I'm going to be cringing all day from that thought.

#117

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:29 PM

Sven, do you mind if I steal (I mean, borrow without obtaining prior permission, but with proper attribution) the first line of your haiku at 10, and drive a different second and third line in under it? (I hope not, but I'm going to do it anyway.) Ahem.

Bam! Teh portcullis.
Now, to the Undying Thread
Add Infinite Beers!

And, in a similar vein, I would like to respond to Benjamin Geiger @ 52:

Ook! Ook ook ook ook.
Ook ook ook ook ook-ook ook,
Ook ook ook ook ook.

Brownian, OM @69:

Getting a Job Changes You

He used to love to sit on that couch all day and play GTA IV. Now I tear up whenever I look at those empty cushions Mondays through Fridays from 7:45 AM to 5:00 PM.

ROTFLMAO!!! *sniff* So beautiful, and so true!

#118

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:34 PM

Human cells exhibit foraging behavior like amoebae and bacteria.

Macrophages? They're patrolling the alveoli of your lungs, all of your loose connective tissue, and the nooks and crannies of your lymphatic system all the time under their own power. And if they're in a hurry, they squeeze into a blood vessel and flow as a monocyte.

#119

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:34 PM

David M., sorry the link to human cells foraging didn't work. I guess I'd better just cut and paste the link:
http://www.biosciencetechnology.com/News/Feeds/2010/03/products-cell-biology-human-cells-exhibit-foraging-behavior-like-amoebae/

Rev BDC: yes, they go so on missions. The LDS Church used to field an army of about 60,000 missionaries per year. Now They send out about 50,000 -- and the poor missionaries pay for the experience themselves. They even pay for the Book of Mormon copies they give out. They pay to be housed in substandard hovels, where some of them die or get very ill. Some of the missionaries, under pressure from supervisors, cook their stats for converts. They baptize drunks, the homeless, the deluded, and then never see them again. The church leaders take advantage of 19-year-old young men and women who have been brainwashed into making some older supervisor look good enough to move up in the ranks. At one time, LDS missionaries offered English lessons in Japan as a sneaky way of getting Japanese converts. (I think they put a stop to that.) Missionaries are encouraged to give religion first and aid second. Of course, some missionaries will provide meaningful aid despite all the obstacles, but the church can't take credit for that.

#120

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:35 PM

American Science & Surplus calls iambilly's alembic gadget a "love meter" or "hand boiler."

Um.

#121

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:35 PM

Brownian #115,

Cheers for the link.

Does Thursday look better if I supply the vicar? I can have him shaved, gagged and liberally sanded.

For those of you who think this is a sexual thing, far, far from it. I just like to torture vicars.

And now I wait for that comment to be picked up at The Intersection Two Prudes, One Kwak, claimed to be adovcacy of vicar abuse by Pharynguloids, and my path to world domination (and profit) is assured. Mwah ha ha haaaaa!

Louis

#122

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:37 PM

Researchers have discovered a new method for predicting, with up to 99 percent accuracy, the fate of stem cells. Using advanced computer vision technology to detect subtle cell movements that are impossible to discern with the human eye, they can successfully forecast how a stem cell will split and what key characteristics the daughter cells will exhibit. By allowing the isolation of cells with specific capabilities, this discovery could one day lead to effective methods for growing stem cells on a large scale for therapeutic use....
http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-IN-Stem-Cell-Fate-031010.aspx
#123

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:40 PM

But Lynna you just can't grasp all the good we do when we are on mission. There was this girl on the side of the road and she was very very sick with malaria and possibly other diseases and me and my mission partner came up and told her it was going to be ok. That God had a plan for her.

We sat and prayed with her.

When we left she was trying to smile there on the side of the road, laying on the ground and coughing.

See all the good we do?

#124

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:40 PM

"love meter" or "hand boiler"

obvious synonyms.

#125

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:44 PM

It will be fun, however, to watch even more advertisers pull their ad dollars from the Glenn Beck show. Glenn, please do continue to alienate the Christians. Thank you.

I don't even know whether that's going to work.
There seems to be a very large reservoir of crazies and the more crazy things Becks says, the more people talk about him, the more they say he's crazy, the more the crazies like him and his audience meter goes up.

And because there will always be companies that need to tap in the huge crazies market, whether to sell SUVs, granite counter tops, or many other things, there will be anouncers that will advertise on his show.

He'd have to say something that the crazies really don't like. Being against "social justice" is something the crazies really like.

#126

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:46 PM

KOPD:

Somebody else here has a vampire fetish?

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a fetish....

And my vampires don't sparkle, or stroll around casually in broad daylight.

#127

Posted by: https://openid.org/cujo359 Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:46 PM

Better than the original. Thanks.

#128

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:46 PM

Bam! Teh portcullis. Now, to the Undying Thread Add Infinite Beers!
Awww! What a sweet, haiku. Well done, cicely.

How is it that I've missed out completely on the abuse of vicars by Pharynguloids? Somebody send me some vicars. I need to catch up.

#130

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:54 PM

Damn. I lost the line breaks in quoting cicely's haiku. A sin against poetry has been committed.

#131

Posted by: Qwerty Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:55 PM

Change changes you.

#132

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:56 PM

I must work out a limerick involving infinite beer.

#133

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:58 PM

1) Is that CBT as in "Cock and Ball Torture" or CBT as in "Cognitive Behaviout Therapy"?

I'm disappointed Louis. I've seen you come up with far more imaginative - and deranged -acronyms* than that.

I would challenge you to a POOP** contest, but we'd both get banned or at least killfiled. And speaking of Brownian, you know he can write some, ah, impressively salty stuff himself.

* OK, I suppose it's the opposite: the expansion of an acronym into new words. There a word for that?

** Pervertedest One On Pharyngula. Red Dwarf of course has the best acronym ever (about 2:50 in, but the whole scene is a classic).

#134

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:58 PM

Ron Sullivan @ 120:

American Science & Surplus calls iambilly's alembic gadget a "love meter" or "hand boiler."

Um.

Yeah. That'll look good on a grant request for an elementary school program.

Louis: I have a lay canon, if that'll help?

#135

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 1:59 PM

Who owns a haiku?
They are emitted and then
they belong to all

#136

Posted by: Dust Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:00 PM

The article quoted @111 calls Glen Beck a rodeo clown. B'eh--Beck is no rodeo clown, real rodeo clowns put there lives and limbs on the line by being chased by, and sometimes caught by, real 2000lb bulls. No shadowy conspiracy there.

Beck is a crying coward.

#137

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:03 PM

He may not be a rodeo clown, but he's a clown

#138

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:04 PM

Gonna Make you Sweat

Ha! Was that SNL? Never seen it before.

#139

Posted by: Bastion Of Sass Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:04 PM

Drinking in Australia changes you.

He used to be a militant new atheist, biologist, and assistant professor at the University of Minnesota Morris named P.Z. Myers, but now, after visiting an Australian pub, it's almost as if he's become a different person entirely.

He's traded in his crockoduck tie for a leotard and tights. He's dyed his hair and beard and curled his hair.

He's unexpectedly developed an awesome talent as a breakdancer. He's decided to become a beer brewer, although it's not yet clear if he's adding this new career path to his teaching, or dropping the latter for the former.

His 'Merican accent has been swapped for an Aussie one, although that happens to a lot of Americans after a night of two-handed drinking in an Aussie pub.

And, in the biggest shocker of all, P.Z. has changed his name to Kevin Cavandish.

#140

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:06 PM

cicely:

Do they look more like porcelain?

#141

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:08 PM

But Lynna you just can't grasp all the good we do when we are on mission. There was this girl on the side of the road and she was very very sick with malaria and possibly other diseases and me and my mission partner came up and told her it was going to be ok. That God had a plan for her. We sat and prayed with her. When we left she was trying to smile there on the side of the road, laying on the ground and coughing. See all the good we do?
LOL. I was thinking of that very story, Rev. The dude had the nerve to post it on Pharyngula as proof that he did great good -- and he used it to berate me for not doing great good. Yes, the time the True Believing Mormons came a-posting was fun. /nostalgia overload

For those who may want to relive the glories of the past, and sample the mormon puffery of "bravestarr", here's the woman-dying-of-malaria comment.

#142

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:10 PM

Ha! Was that SNL? Never seen it before.

Yeah that was right before SNL went in the shitter for a while.

#143

Posted by: Feynmaniac Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:27 PM

Glenn "socialism-is-bad-believe-me-I-read-about-it-free-of-charge-at-the-public-library" Beck used drink a lot and was addicted to drugs. I think that severly damaged his brain. He now lives crying and BARKING LIKE A DOG on TV.

I think he's been getting worse. He'll soon be too paranoid and crazy even for Fox News viewers. And his kind doesn't go gently into the night. No, he'll starfart so spectacularly and totally people will be talking about it even years afterwards.

#144

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:30 PM

http://www.biosciencetechnology.com/News/Feeds/2010/03/products-cell-biology-human-cells-exhibit-foraging-behavior-like-amoebae/

Very interesting finding about cancer.

Researchers have discovered a new method for predicting, with up to 99 percent accuracy, the fate of stem cells.

Oho!

Change changes you.

Change we need.

(…My sister didn't grasp the grammar of that one and thought it must be Yodaspeak.)

#145

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:32 PM

I think he's been getting worse.

He is and has been for 10 years.

I used to occasionally catch him on the radio back before he went big. He was still a right wing asshole but wasn't nearly outwardly as batshit fucking insane as he is now.

I think the probably of his head imploding in a pink misty pop over something as trivial as even the mention of government run [insert here] is rapidly accelerating to 1.

The only thing that will be left are his temple garments and a strange odor of brimstone and fried bologna.

#146

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:34 PM

Needed, change is.[/yoda]

BDC, I'm in on the Madness. I e'd you.

#147

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:34 PM

I think he's been getting worse. He'll soon be too paranoid and crazy even for Fox News viewers. And his kind doesn't go gently into the night. No, he'll starfart so spectacularly and totally people will be talking about it even years afterwards.

I can't wait for it :-)

#148

Posted by: Blake Stacey Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:35 PM

The Smithsonian has a new Human Origins Initiative, which has a "Broader Social Impacts Committee" described thusly:

The Smithsonian's Human Origins Initiative has formed the Broader Social Impacts Committee (BSIC), comprised of people from diverse religious communities from around the United States, to assist in public communication and dialogue surrounding the exhibition 'What Does It Mean To Be Human?' and outreach efforts in human origins.

Only one of the members — Joe Watkins, University of Oklahoma — is listed without a formal religious affiliation.

#149

Posted by: Qwerty Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:35 PM

Rev. BDC @ #142 - Seasons 3 and 4 of SNL are on sale at Target for only $16.95 for the next couple of weeks.

You'd only have to give up four or five pounds of bacon to afford one of these!

#150

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:35 PM

wait, was that a blockquote failure in #145 from Rev. BigDumbChimp?


NOOoooOOOOOOOOOOOooOOOoOOOOOOOOO

that never happens.

#151

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:36 PM

Mr Fire #133,

You can be disappointed all you like, pal, it's not my acronym! ;-)

The practise of enjoying painful manipulation of a gentleman's happy sausage and clockweights is genuiney referred to as CBT....erm...allegedly. I don't know from experience myself you understand.

The Committee mentioned in the clip (ahhhh the Dwarf) is one of the highlight in an excellent show.

------------

iambilly #134,

A lay canon? I suppoe it'll do in a pinch, although I'd prefer a deacon. Had a bishop and two verger's in here last week. Bloody marvellous.

Walton #19,

Re: Anna Arrowsmith. I have just spent some time viewing Mrs Arrowsmith's work. I am going to relax for a while then view some more. Frankly, she needs to up her game to get my vote.

;-)

Louis

#152

Posted by: Blake Stacey Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:37 PM

(I heard about the Smithsonian HOI at the Panda's Thumb.)

#153

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:37 PM

No, he'll starfart so spectacularly and totally people will be talking about it even years afterwards.

Heh. I swear if I'm ever interviewed and asked what was the single best thing I learned by reading Pharyngula daily, I will immediately and without hesitation reply that it introduced the term "starfart" into my vernacular. And not just because it just sounds damn funny, but because never has a word been so aptly, yet so ironically redefined (from the poor commenter's chosen nym to the descriptive term that so wonderfully encompassed his/her own complete meltdown).

Pharyngula! It's Faaaaaaaantastic!

#154

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:38 PM

BDC, I'm in on the Madness. I e'd you

swwweeeet

I'll send an invite your way

#155

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:38 PM

@Rev. BDC:

I used to occasionally catch him on the radio back before he went big. He was still a right wing asshole but wasn't nearly outwardly as batshit fucking insane as he is now.

I did too, I really enjoyed him back then because I was ignorant right wing conservative Christian. Sometime between Obama running for president and now, he snapped and went completely crazy.

I have subsequently stopped listening to him, and his books are now in the pile of other books I don't read anymore - devotionals, biblical word studies, and the bible itself.

#156

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:39 PM

After Dust: Word. Rodeo-clownin' ain't nuttin' ta fsck wit. Really. Anybody fearless enough to interact with animals in that fashion has a grand potential to be dangerous*. Beck is too much of a weeper for that metaphor to make sense even remotely. Rodeo clowns should be offended, in any case.

*I am in no way endorsing rodeos or untoward behavior to those of the bovine or equine ilk.

#157

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:41 PM

@Celtic_Evolution:

Which thread was the starfart in?

#158

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:41 PM

Anyone have a link to the original starfart meltdown?

#159

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:42 PM

I'm particularly haunted by the fact that Quack credits himself with "keeping" a terminally ill cancer patient alive for "six more months" after an oncologist told her to "go home and die."

First of all, only a terrible doctor would say that. Having dealt with and met several oncologists I really have never seen them be anything but honest and kind to their patients about the chances of their recovery. Sadly I have seen several friends become ill from cancer and some of them have died.

One in particular was at Stage IV of a fairly rare cancer (mycosis fungoides). She did opt for aggressive treatment, but she ultimately she did die from the cancer which had spread to her lymph system by the time she was diagnosed. Never once did any of her doctors (mind you there's more than one here) tell her to "go home and die."

Similarly the same group of doctors was involved in comforting another person I know who happened to have the same type of rare cancer (what are the odds) with the fact that hers was in an early stage and had a good chance of remission. Currently she is cancer free.

Now, despite the deaths from cancer I know of, not a single one just dropped dead from cancer. Time frames vary. One person lived a month or two, another lived nearly a year longer than expected although she was in horrible pain the whole time. Doctors may give a time frame that is expected, but giving a person a realistic expectation of the development of their disease is not the same as telling them to "go home and die."

#161

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:43 PM

I think he's been getting worse. He'll soon be too paranoid and crazy even for Fox News viewers. And his kind doesn't go gently into the night. No, he'll starfart so spectacularly and totally people will be talking about it even years afterwards.

Too crazy for Faux? Is that possible?

Louis @ 151:

A verger? So that would make it a 'merger with a verger'? Or have I just gone down a road I will regret?

#162

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:44 PM

Doctors may give a time frame that is expected, but giving a person a realistic expectation of the development of their disease is not the same as telling them to "go home and die."

Just so. Quack is lying. What do you want to bet he kept his patient from getting the most comfortable palliative and hospice care, too, because that would just be "giving up and dying." So much better to suffer.

#163

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:46 PM

Ok Janine, that was painful.

To make up for it, we get the Deodato version.

#164

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:46 PM

@Celtic_Evolution:

Which thread was the starfart in?

Enjoy.

#165

Posted by: Feynmaniac Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:46 PM

The starfart meltdown.

#166

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:47 PM

Do not hit unless you want your ears to be punished.

Damn you Janine! That piece just broke the entire Western harmonic tradition. I think foul scorn upon it.

#167

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:49 PM

**looks over Feynmaniac's twitching corpse, pistol still in hand**

Yer too slow, tenderfoot...

#168

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:50 PM

Whew, that was good.

I've got a few tears from holding back the guffaws.

Especially with BoS,OM's wow at the end.

#169

Posted by: Becca Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:50 PM

changing the topic for a minute, if I may. I'm seriously thinking of dropping the Point of Inquiry podcast, and telling CFI that it's because I can't stand Chris Mooney and don't want to support him in any way. I consider him dishonest, and, as a Templeton Fellow, to run counter to what the CFI stands for.

I have nothing against (or for - not enough experience with them) his co-hosts, and what I did hear was interesting.

Has anyone else dropped PoI? did you tell CFI why?

#170

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:52 PM

Wow. I missed the original starfart. I'm not sure what to make of that. Wow.

#171

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:54 PM

The comments following the starfart are an important part of the experience.

crying here

#172

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 2:56 PM

Oh man that thread is funny.
Feynmaniac later formalized the usage:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/01/sometimes_i_think_we_break_the.php#comment-2224429

#173

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:00 PM

Starfart may have had an epic meltdown, but does he/she write lucidly about the Congo?*

Louis

*Determined to show horn that one in there.

#174

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:01 PM

Determined to show horn

Is that like Rhino Porn?

#175

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:02 PM

Starfart may have had an epic meltdown, but does he/she write lucidly about the Congo?*

Louis

*Determined to show horn that one in there.

I regret having ever made that concession, which I did preemptively to fend off the inevitable BUT HE WRITES GOOD SOMETIMES SO HES NOT A BAD WRITER.

Actually, the way you've pimped it is pretty damn funny, Louis.

#176

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:02 PM

Thanks for the link, Celtic_Evolution and Feynmaniac

#177

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:03 PM

Also I wish to shoe horn it in.

Horse cocks!

Louis

#178

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:03 PM

He'll soon be too paranoid and crazy even for Fox News viewers.

I see no evidence of this.
I think you are underestimating the size of the reservoir of complete libertarian fuckwits there is out there.
Rupert Murdoch thinks he can make a lot of money exploiting the loonitarian market, and Beck's show writers seem to know how to do this.

You just need to read some of the comments on some of the sites like the drudge report and the various fox owned sites (eg foxnation) to see that Beck is just about at the right level of stupidity, incoherence, childishness, paranoia and ignorance of most of his audience.

#179

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:04 PM

Let's be fair to starfart. Here, starfart gives a rather thorough thrashing to the creationist poster, Kevin Wirth. Yes, that meltdown was spectacular. But I wish starfart would show up more often.

#180

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:05 PM

Becca @ 169:

Yes, I dropped it for exactly that reason. I feel a bit petty about it, actually, because some of the interviewees are people I would like to hear from, but the price of having Mooney in my ear is just too fucking high. I nearly starfarted when Mooney--MOONEY, of all people--appeared on MSNBC to discuss the vaccine-autism (non)link with Snyderman, Scarborough et al a few weeks ago, and I felt petty then, too, because he actually said everything I would have hoped a representative of science might say. I wish i could be more magnanimous about it, but my shriveled, rancorous heart just can't take the strain.

#181

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:05 PM

ROFL. Come on, Louis, show us a little horn [OSG giggles and twirls hair around finger].

#182

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:05 PM

There were warning tremors:

#183

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:07 PM

Feynmaniac later formalized the usage:

Actually, to give credit where credit is due, the first suggestion of the use of the word as a verb describing complete meltdown was by Bride of Shrek in the very same thread.

And she did it hilariously:

Example:

Creotard: ..but the bible says so!

B of S: No it doesn't.

Creotard: no really it does , Lord Jesus said so

B of S: Your might want to fuck of, I'm about to Starfart.

#184

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:08 PM

Yes, that meltdown was spectacular. But I wish starfart would show up more often.

Exactly. If I was the creator of something that spectacular I would be here basking in the warm glowing warm glow of my masterpiece.

Nothing to be ashamed of if you have the occasional meltdown

In fact I'd say it is good for you.

And that one probably extended starfart's life by a few weeks.

#185

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:08 PM

@Janine:

Wow, that is a nice post.

#186

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:09 PM

After scrolling down, I know realize that Kevin Wirth was the tick tock asshole.

#187

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:09 PM

Sven, your #182 is FAIL! Must have content after colon; am curious!

#188

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:10 PM

Somebody else here has a vampire fetish?
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a fetish....

And my vampires don't sparkle, or stroll around casually in broad daylight.


Shoo! I'm not sharing. Find your own caninely well-endowed population! The paleontologists are miiiine!
#189

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:10 PM

After scrolling down, I know realize that Kevin Wirth was the tick tock asshole.

Ahhh good catch.

#190

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:11 PM

There were warning tremors:

shit, that one got away from me. Damn it, I can't find it now, but I'm certain I remember a little warm-up pre-starfart that was posted an hour or two before the Main Event.

#191

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:13 PM

Yes, that meltdown was spectacular. But I wish starfart would show up more often.

Echoing RBDC's sentiments in #184... no doubt. "Starfart" is an homage to a glorious complete meltdown by an otherwise respectable and likable commenter.

In fact, I think I shall make my way to Urban Dictionary and suggest a new entry...

#193

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:14 PM

Rev BDC #174,

No that's just one attempt at my takeover of your title as King of Typos. World domination is not enough.

---------

Josh OSG and Locutus of Gay #175,

I don't know Mr (Dr?) Laden and bear the man no ill will. I've enjoyed some of his output before, so I agree, his writing is not universally terrible. As if *I'm* in a position to criticise! LOL

The recent DRAMA and arseholery from Greg has been amusing as an outsider, but IMO it's shown him up as something of a muppet. Pity really. The "writes lucidly on the Congo" stuff just amused the hell out of me. It just sounded so incongruous amongst the rest of people's comments. It seemed to be damning with faint praise, and I laughed pretty hard at it. It needs wider attention imo.

I probably shouldn't pimp it, but if I can get my own (positive) contribution to Pharyngula Lore then my incredibly low standards of Internet Contribution will be met and I can die a happy commenter. Or not. ;-)

Louis

#194

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:16 PM

to give credit where credit is due,

"formalized"
I would never think of denying BoS her due yuks!

#195

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:18 PM

No that's just one attempt at my takeover of your title as King of Typos. World domination is not enough.

Which you of course realize puts me in the perfect position to be critical of everyone's typos.

#196

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:18 PM

Sven #194

Ah. Point taken. ;^)

#197

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:19 PM

I love it when 'Recent Coomments' is all teh Thread!

#198

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:26 PM

"writes lucidly on the Congo"

is indeed a richly evocative phrase for some reason.
I think I'll start using it to soften the blow a bit, should I ever get involved in another argument, which I don't plan to.

"You are an idiot. A fool. You wouldn't know logic if it bit your lingual frenulum. Yo mama so stupid it took her 2 hours to watch 60 minutes*.
But you write lucidly on the Congo."

*yes I googled for that one

#199

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:33 PM

Ugh. My glamorous life has come to a screeching halt. I have to go the city dump. Can you imagine? Serves me right for being so cheap I won't hire a garbage removal service.

In my absence, I'll be accepting comments on what I should have for supper.

Thank you. SpokesGay out.

#200

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:35 PM

That lovely meltdown must have happened during one of my non-pharyngula-reading phases. I regret missing it!

I've felt like starfart when attempting to read this blog on my iPhone.

iPhone does not like scienceblogs. iPhone does not like many many comments. iPhone makes me sad some times and glad I bought it off a friend for 50 bucks instead of paying $$$ for one from ATT. Scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll... oops page refreshed... scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll....

Iphone would not let me get in that many characters before refreshing the blog though, thus deleting all my hard earned psychotic rage.

#201

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:36 PM

Lynna:

Well done, cicely.

*blush*Thank you.

I'm no Cuttlefish,
But I can, at least, haiku
Like a mad woman.

Sven:

Who owns a haiku? They are emitted and then they belong to all

Very generous of you (no sarcasm).

Still, I prefer to at least give people a quick heads-up while I'm filing the serial numbers off of their intellectual property. :)

KOPD:

Do they look more like porcelain?

I suppose they do, only with a more matte finish, and without the floral motif painted on.

#202

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:36 PM

@Josh, OSG:

Supper, eh? How about chorizo and baby onion casserole? Tis what I'm having.

#203

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:37 PM

In my absence, I'll be accepting comments on what I should have for supper.

Thai salmon basil curry with coconut lime scented rice.

There you go, problem solved.

#204

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:38 PM

The practise of enjoying painful manipulation of a gentleman's happy sausage and clockweights is genuiney referred to as CBT

Aah, I see. My faith in you is restored!

....erm...allegedly. I don't know from experience myself you understand.

Next you time you go to the therapy session that takes place next to the S&M; dungeon...make sure you choose the correct door!

#205

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:40 PM

iPhone does not like scienceblogs. iPhone does not like many many comments. iPhone makes me sad some times and glad I bought it off a friend for 50 bucks instead of paying $$$ for one from ATT. Scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll... oops page refreshed... scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll....

Iphone would not let me get in that many characters before refreshing the blog though, thus deleting all my hard earned psychotic rage.

Yep I've 100% stopped torturing myself trying to read and especially comment from my iPhone.

It's unbearable.

That's the one feature I'd love to get from teh sciborg

A mobile version of the blogs.













*laughs hysterically at the thought of the sciborg undergnomes being able to deliver.

#206

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:47 PM

I do not know about iPhone but on my crackberry, I installed Bolt. Sometimes, it can be a bit temperamental, but it get the web page. Not the mobile phone version where I have to keep moving onto the next page.

#208

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:48 PM

Josh OhSoGood #181,

I will have you know I am not that kind of boy on a first date. Even then I'm not a slay, it's tits first then fanny.*

(Sound of ominous obvious galloping knob joke)

I am afraid I cannot show you a little horn....I can show you a great BIIIIIG horn.**

Louis

* I suppose given the Americanness of much of the audience, that can be taken either way. Rather like this girl I once knew from Nuneaton...Annnnyway....

** Actual horn size may vary. Contents may have settled in transit.

#209

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:48 PM

Oh fuck.


Prepare for the anti-predator asshole brigade to come out in full force now. Expect Sarah Palin to be there leading the protest reading the keynote off the back of her hand.

#210

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:49 PM

Thai salmon basil curry with coconut lime scented rice.

Mmmm... sounds tasty...

I'm going to be whipping up polenta-encrusted chicken with balsamic caper sauce and wild rice...

#211

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:51 PM

Mr Fire #204,

But my therapist was strapped to a vaulting horse and told me to come on in.

I need a new therapist. Or perhaps I don't.

Louis

#212

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:52 PM

@Rev BDC:

Awesome... now I'm going to be upset. I was at the Museum of Natural History here in DC, and there's a room with lots of different stuffed mammals (holy freakin' crap the meeces were cute - look up 'Harvest Mouse' on Google Images. That sucker is so tiny and so cute.)

Anyway, back off my tangent, there was a grey wolf on display, and it made me go all teary-eyed knowing that in the future, that's the only way my grandchildren will be able to see them, instead of being able to see the majesty of the creatures in the wild or a zoo.

#213

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:59 PM

I do not know about iPhone but on my crackberry, I installed Bolt.

Iphone = Safari = total suckage.

No flash support, and the only 3rd party browsers you can get are pieces of crap like Edge and others which all must be based on WebKit to work on the iPhone, and aren't really "browsers" but just more like "skins" for Safari.

#214

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 3:59 PM

Oh and Josh OSG,

Dinner: Jello shots of various flavours followed by body shots off the desirable person of your chosing. Cocktail of drugs du jour followed by dancing and comedy homeward journey involving a traffic cone, a kebab, a bus shelter and the Emergency dept (don't worry, just a sprain).

Ok so that's what I'm having*. You?

Louis

*Actual night out may vary. We may substitute shitty nappies, cooking dinner, washing up then early bed so two hours writing a paper for Org Let can be done before the ankle biter wakes, without warning.

#215

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:06 PM

Josh, Official SpokesGay In my absence, I'll be accepting comments on what I should have for supper.

Well, I'm having Tuscan grilled ham, radicchio and fresh peas in cream sauce served over spaghetti rigati. I will accompany it with some leftover homemade Italian batter bread and a field greens salad.

(((Wife))) and I have a deal: I cook, she cleans up. And it has worked for nigh onto 20 years (well, 20 years come May something-or-other (at least, I think it's 20 years (1989 to 2010 -- shit, it's 21 years (which means (((Boy))) turns 20 (I lost a year somewhere)))). Over 20 years. Or something.

#216

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:12 PM

Let's see. Lack of planovers. Neighborhood tea. I see the Redhead wanting to go to the local family restaurant for dinner of salmon or the fish fry.

#217

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:21 PM

Free dinosaur app from the AMNH! Seems to show detailed photos, the kind of thing scientists need... I don't have an iPhone, but perhaps I need one. Occasionally. :-)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

LOL! 2:41: two people ask independently for a link to the original starfart. 2:46: two other people independently provide the direct link to the comment.

:-)

And then comes...

Yer too slow, tenderfoot...

LOL! Pharyngula is a mood-altering substance ^_^

Shoo! I'm not sharing. Find your own caninely well-endowed population! The paleontologists are miiiine!

But... as far as I can tell, nobody even so much as implied taking any paleontologists away from you. :-)

Ugh. My glamorous life has come to a screeching halt. I have to go the city dump. Can you imagine? Serves me right for being so cheap I won't hire a garbage removal service.

Uh... is that privatized in the USA? Like health insurance?

o_O

In my absence, I'll be accepting comments on what I should have for supper.

Cress soup. I hadn't had any in a long time (an entire week, or almost), so I'm finishing my second plate now. :-) And this after having had a slightly different kind of cress soup for dinner!

...well... what edibles have you got at home?

Thai salmon basil curry with coconut lime scented rice.

:-o

That sounds so good I might even get over the coconut part.

#218

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:22 PM

Louis, are you, by any chance, Hunter S. Thompson risen from the dead? Or reincarnated?

#219

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:22 PM

That's the one feature I'd love to get from teh sciborg A mobile version of the blogs.

Dude, are you...

Did...

Did you just...?

I think that costs more than a camera.

#220

Posted by: windy Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:24 PM

This appears to be incorrect. The major studies under discussion (Rosenberg and Bamshad) did in fact have to predetermine K.

Sorry, my answer was a little unclear. K is predetermined for a single run of the program, but the method itself involves multiple runs. No study I've read has only reported results at one K. I was more answering Antiochus generally than talking about any specific study.

It's true that there is some arbitrary choice involved in the range of K, but the method doesn't necessarily "bin" individuals into one single group because they can have membership in multiple clusters.

#221

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:28 PM

I'm particularly haunted by the fact that Quack credits himself with "keeping" a terminally ill cancer patient alive for "six more months" after an oncologist told her to "go home and die."

First of all, only a terrible doctor would say that. Having dealt with and met several oncologists I really have never seen them be anything but honest and kind to their patients about the chances of their recovery. Sadly I have seen several friends become ill from cancer and some of them have died.

No, see, that's what doctors do, every Doc "I wish I'd specialised in plastic surgery so I could be staring at silicone implants all day instead of treating these--ugh!--people" Hollywood-esque one of 'em. In contrast naturopaths, to the qi-harnessing last one of 'em, got into medicine because they were born of a holy union of Jesus and a rainbow and dream of nothing but treating the whole person and only accept money because one can't buy empty homeopathy bottles with Kumbaya choruses.

/quack

You know these assholes can only get away with saying such shit in a vacuum. People like me who--ahem!--work in chronic disease surveillance specialising in cancer and work closely with more dedicated, caring, and compassionate oncologists than asshats like quackalicious can count without taking off their shoes aren't fooled. I've met palliative and end-of-life teams in hospitals. Suggesting they say "go home and die" is complete dishonesty. It really just suggests that either they have no idea what real medicine is (likely), or they're total fucking liars with an economic stake in painting real medicine in the harshest, most unkind light possible (slightly likelier).

#222

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:34 PM

David Marjanović: on the Friday Cephalopod thread I drew your attention to an article, and I'd be interested in your opinion.

#223

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:38 PM

Contents may have settled in transit.

X-D

polenta-encrusted chicken with balsamic caper sauce and wild rice...

Impressive. But both polenta and wild rice?

Polenta is best fried in salted butter and eaten with pörkölt <drool> or fried bacon (with all its grease). Delicious (if you used enough butter), and you won't be hungry for the rest of the day. :-)

#224

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:42 PM

why are you all talking about dinner already? I haven't had breakfast yet...

#225

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:46 PM

Those young heathens are off to the first talk at the GAC, 0830am.Spawn is 3 today, so I'm going to be handing over prezzies before I go back and join the fracas later, which is good since it gives me time to somehow recover from last night's uhm, goings-on.

It is a thing to behold, people sitting in pubs reading TGD at midnight, gazillions of godless folks laughing, enjoying, excited about this event, even real crazy xtian people in the streets handing out Comfort screeds!!

Expect much celebration today, and even more tone concern expressed from the other side !!

#226

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:48 PM

@David:

Ugh. My glamorous life has come to a screeching halt. I have to go the city dump. Can you imagine? Serves me right for being so cheap I won't hire a garbage removal service.
Uh... is that privatized in the USA? Like health insurance?


It's so stupid. Here in Vermont, trash removal is not provided by the municipality. I've lived all around the US, and I've never seen a city or town that didn't provide trash pick-up. It's most obnoxious.


Thanks for all the good dinner ideas, folks.

#227

Posted by: A. Noyd Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:49 PM

My problem with reading Pharyngula on the iPhone is that the longer threads simply crash Safari. Lots. Waiting for a 500+ post thread to reload is annoying as fuck (though it seems like the ads cause the longest holdup). Wait times aside, I have a few tricks that make reading Pharyngula easier.

First, I use the "find in page" bookmarklet* to avoid scrolling through what I've already read. This requires remembering something unique to search for near where you left off, though, since the feature only takes you to the first instance of what you're searching. Usually the post number (with the number sign) works. There's also a bookmarklet for going to the bottom of a page, but I don't have that one, so I can't comment on how well it works.

Second, if I want to refresh the page without finding where I was, I press and hold the date and time link of the post I'm on and choose "Open in New Page."

.....................
*You have to bookmark the bookmarklets in Safari or IE on your main computer and then sync them with your phone. However, this will replace all the current bookmarks on your phone, so you might want to sync the other way first. And if you don't want to overwrite your computer's bookmarks, then make a copy of your bookmarks file and use the copy to replace the bookmarks after you get the bookmarklets onto your phone. It's a hassle, but being able to search a page is well worth it.

#228

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:49 PM

I don't know what's for dinner. I had leftover chicken tikka masala for lunch with some particularly flavorful basmati.

I still have a couple hours of work left. No use thinking of dinner.

Oh... for some reason I'm feeling an oppressive sadness.

.ugh.

#229

Posted by: A. Noyd Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:52 PM

David Marjanović (#223)

Impressive. But both polenta and wild rice?

In English, polenta sometimes refers to the raw corn meal and not the porridge. I'm guessing that's the case here.

#230

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:53 PM

It's so stupid. Here in Vermont, trash removal is not provided by the municipality. I've lived all around the US, and I've never seen a city or town that didn't provide trash pick-up. It's most obnoxious.

Maybe I misunderstand, but that's the way it is here in my location in the Midwest. There are several providers to choose from, but all are commercial. Can't say I'm happy about the price, but the landfill is an hour's drive from here so I pay it.

#231

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 4:56 PM

on the Friday Cephalopod thread I drew your attention to an article, and I'd be interested in your opinion.

I just replied. In short, I have yet to read the paper...

why are you all talking about dinner already? I haven't had breakfast yet...

:-) I never have breakfast except for a mug of milk, because I simply don't get up early enough – I read my e-mails, take a look at the Internet, and go to the cafeteria. On weekends, I almost always skip breakfast, too (usually I don't even have bread in the house... though I'll probably buy some tomorrow!), and start cooking sometime in the afternoon... or early evening even... depends, actually, less on my hunger than on when I finally manage to peel myself off the computer. :-]

#232

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:00 PM

I had leftover chicken tikka masala for lunch with some particularly flavorful basmati.

:-9

#233

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:00 PM

well, I do usually have breakfast, and then lunch around 8pm, and dinner sometime after midnight :-p

#234

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:03 PM

I do tend to keep eating as long as I'm awake, if I'm not already seriously filled.

#235

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:04 PM

Since I'm trying to be more creative (and cheap) about my meals, I took David's advice to see what I had on hand. So, supper will be split pea soup (with BACON) and garlic/parmesan polenta cakes. All ingredients on hand, and I can eat it for days.

#236

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:04 PM

If I did that, I'd weigh half a ton. I have distinct meals specifically because otherwise I'd eat waaaay too much

#237

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:06 PM

You guys are killing me with these succulent menu choices. I've yet to find time to consume anything but tea (with milk, at least) today, and it's just gone 2PM. After a vigorous 3000m swim a couple of hours ago, I'm beginning to feel a bit light-headed.

The makeup of the planned evening meal at Chez Phillips is too humiliating to mention, but in my defense it's the end of the week, the cupboards are bare, and my son is playing in a basketball tournament at 6PM. I'll just have to lie back and think of Tuscan grilled ham :)

#238

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:10 PM

Josh,

might I suggest a beverage to go with that?

#239

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:11 PM

It looks as if the paranoia over at the InterDungeon has reached a climax with Kwok's latest remark :

@ Everyone -

Just noticed this as a breaking news headline:

A man in Atlanta, GA was arrested for posting over on YouTube on February 28th a video of himself urging that Elton John should be killed:

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=487661&gt1;=28102

While I won’t equate that man’s act with the comments over at Pharyngula, I think it is quite clear that SEED Media needs to do something to PZ Myers and Pharyngula. IMHO a mere slap on the wrist would be a most unsatisfactory response.

#240

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:21 PM

While I won’t equate that man’s act with the comments over at Pharyngula, I think it is quite clear that SEED Media needs to do something to PZ Myers and Pharyngula.
*headdesk* ???????? So, he's not equating this with Stu's comment, oh dear me, no--he's merely using it as an irrelevant example to advance his argument that something needs to be done to PZ/Pharyngula?

What a tool.

#241

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:22 PM

Kwok seems to have been getting slimy insinuation lessons from Laden.

#242

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:25 PM

Kwok's actual latest (note that it did go into moderation and was let out, so one of the Wonder Twins either approved of it or didn't disagree enough to say so, as my later post was originally posted where his was not yet there):

If someone can be arrested for posting a video of himself stating that Elton John should be killed, then SEED Media needs to act swiftly and harshly against PZ Myers and Pharyngula for the sad fact that someone suggested that Sheril Kirshenbaum should be raped, and that she, Chris Mooney and others should be killed (even if that was meant as a joke).

I have pointed this out to several people at SEED Media, including, I think, Adam Bly, and I hope they respond accordingly in a similar fashion (And no, not by arresting PZ or those responding at Pharyngula, but instead, by inflicting the harshest penalty possible that they can do at both PZ and Pharyngula.).

I am a firm believer in freedom of speech, but free speech has its limits. You don’t scream “Fire” in a crowded theater when there isn’t any sign of fire. Nor should anyone tolerate the mere mention of raping and killing someone online, even if it’s meant to be funny.

#243

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:25 PM

I've yet to find time to consume anything but tea (with milk, at least) today, and it's just gone 2PM. After a vigorous 3000m swim a couple of hours ago, I'm beginning to feel a bit light-headed.

Oh I wish I could do that. Nothing seems to keep me from eating. I have a feeling I could eat my shoes while walking if I got hungry enough :(

Some exercise would be good too. I've been so freaking weak now I almost dread working out again. It's going to be frustrating.

#244

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:27 PM

Holy crap. First we lost Jon Swift, and now we're losing Internet Monk. I don't know if anyone here read him, but as far as Christians go, he was one of the good ones. I read a lot of his stuff while in the process of deconverting, because he was of the same denomination as me but further along the sanity continuum than those I had grown up with.

#245

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:28 PM

Josh, OSG:

In my absence, I'll be accepting comments on what I should have for supper.

Mmmph, I'm barely awake and still having tea. *Wanders off, has a look at the foodstuffs* Umm, Chile Verde tonight:

Gearjammers Chile Verde

2 pounds pork (loin preferred)
3/4 pound chopped mild green chiles, roasted and cleaned
1/2 pound cubed hot green New Mexico chiles, roasted and cleaned
1/4 green bell pepper, finely chopped
6 medium green onions (white part only), finely chopped
5 medium tomatillos, chopped
7 large serrano peppers, finely chopped with no seeds
2 ounces finely chopped garlic
12 ounces any green chile sauce
14 ounces chicken broth
3 teaspoons salt

Brown meat and drain any fat, 1 pound at a time. Add all other ingredients
except 1/4 pound hot chiles and 1 teaspoon salt. Simmer on medium for 1 1/2
hours.

Add the rest of the green chiles, chopped hot peppers and the rest of the
salt (if needed). Cook on low simmer 1/2 hour. Serve with white beans and
flour tortillas.

#246

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:30 PM

Oh, by the way, note that Kwok isn't even describing the offending post accurately. There is an argument to be made against Stu's post, if one has no problem with playing fast-and-loose with the context. They're not even doing that, preferring to boldly lie where no man (or woman) bothers checking the source before clutching pearls. This is the sort of intellectual dishonesty and empty posturing they have been cultivating ever since they moved to Discover.

#247

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:31 PM

If you want to snort and giggle in disbelief, read this

except

if you know any schoolchildren in Texas.

The map of school board districts should be safe, however.

If I did that, I'd weigh half a ton. I have distinct meals specifically because otherwise I'd eat waaaay too much

I wonder if that's actually true. You see, after I've been eating solid massive chocolate for an hour or two, I'm simply out of hunger, and supper has to be postponed...

Here, during the week, when I arrive in the "lab" (more like "office"), I eat the dessert I brought from the cafeteria, then I eat the stuff I brought from home (depending on what phase I'm having that can be a choco "corn"flakes plagiate, pains au chocolat, a Twix plagiate, just chocolate, or potato chips), then I notice I've stopped eating because I'm no longer hungry, then I get hungry again and continue munching... At home I only drink milk and, at most, eat soup. Unless I didn't have enough to eat in the cafeteria and/or afterwards; then I cook something.

Having three square meals a day and nothing between them isn't an option for me. I can't eat a lot at once, and I get hungry again fairly quickly.

After a vigorous 3000m swim a couple of hours ago

:-S

Rip yourself off the computer and eat. Something. Anything but the furniture.

#248

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:32 PM

SEED Media needs to do something to PZ Myers and Pharyngula

Interesting he didn't say "about" PZ Myers and Pharyngula. You would think if he perceived us as a threat, even in a fit of typical insanity, he would have said about.

"To" does imply something different. I guess he things we should be punished or made an example of, whether or not any real danger is posed. I wonder what he'd like to do "to" us? Somehow I think his imagination runs far beyond the limited jurisdiction of SEED Media.

It starts with censorship, oh but where does it end?

#249

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:33 PM

Kw*k's latest latest:

As for Ken Miller, he’s most certainly a friend, and I don’t have time (nor does he) to write to him constantly (or to reply, etc.).

Lol. I wonder if he's holding seances with Eminent Teacher and Bestselling Memoirist Frank McCourt, whom he had the pleasure of taking instruction from at The Country's Leading High School.

#250

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:37 PM

Lol. I wonder if he's holding seances with Eminent Teacher and Bestselling Memoirist Frank McCourt, whom he had the pleasure of taking instruction from at The Country's Leading High School.

To be fair to Kwok, I did bait him about Miller. Mostly in trying to sort out negentropy's question about why Kwok mentioned the Elton John threat arrest if he did not mean to compare the situations. My hypothesis was that Ken Miller stopped answering his emails, and he picked up correspondence with Glenn Beck to fill in the void. I am sad that he only dropped the name of one Famous Friend in his response -- it seems atypical.

#251

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:38 PM

*shakes head slowly from side to side, and not for the first time, in abject wonder at J*hn Kw*k*

#252

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:38 PM

Kwak:

I am a firm believer in freedom of speech, but free speech has its limits. You don’t scream “Fire” in a crowded theater when there isn’t any sign of fire. Nor should anyone tolerate the mere mention of raping and killing someone online, even if it’s meant to be funny.

The 'net is a theatre now? Hmph. Perhaps someone should point Kwak in the direction of http://www.love-shy.com/phpBB3/ - there are few people there who gleefully advocate rape and other abuse.

#253

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:39 PM

Kw*k scares me. Like really. He's creepy as fuck. I can just imagine him writing one of his *friends* about a lunch date that never manifests. Yet he keeps writing. Never getting it. Never even considering....

#254

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:40 PM

Oh, Caine, that's a fine chili verde recipe! Will file that away for another time. In reciprocation, here's my tortilla recipe. Having discovered that no self-respecting real Mexican restaurant would serve store-bought, I can't go back to commercial flour tortillas. One bite of the real thing, and store-bought tastes horrible.

SpokesGay's Tortillas

3 cups flour
2 tsp. salt
1 tbsp. baking powder
4-5 tbsp. fat (lard works best for flavor and texture, but shortening is good too. Do not use liquid vegetable oil)
1 and a scant 1/4 cup warm water

*note* - These are flour tortillas, which are easier to work with than corn. But I oftenuse about 25 percent corn meal because I like the flavor of corn, with the pliability of flour. You can subst. 1/4 of the flour for corn meal, if you want.


Combine dry ingredients. Then cut in shortening until mixture is in coarse crumbs. Add warm water, stir, then knead about 10 times to combine. Let sit for 15 minutes for flour to soak up water, and dough to firm up. Meanwhile, heat a skillet (preferably cast iron) on high.

Divide dough into about 12 balls, golf-ball size or smaller. Flour the living hell out of your counter and your rolling pin - you're going to need it to keep tortillas from sticking. Take a ball and flatten it with your palm on the floured surface. Roll it out a few inches, flip over, and give it a quarter turn, so when you roll it next, it stretches in a sort-of-circular way. Repeat until about 1/4" thick or thinner. Don't worry about it being perfectly round. . .that's almost impossible.

Put your tortilla in the hot pan, and wait about 45 seconds until you see air pockets bubble up high. As long as the underside has some nice brown spots, flip over for another 30 secs until done. You can tell by looking at it. Remove to a plate, and cover. Repeat with remaining tortillas.

If they seem to burn too quickly, wipe the pan out with a paper towel soaked in oil. This brushes out the burnt flour, and regreases the pan. Be sparing with the oil though, or they'll be greasy.

They do freeze well, but it's better to make the dough, make the balls, then freeze them in a ziploc.

#255

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:41 PM

Josh... I'm totally going to try making those tonight.

#256

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:43 PM

Kw*k scares me. Like really. He's creepy as fuck.

Me too, Ol'Greg. As someone else said recently, I think he is truly mentally disordered (not speaking metaphorically). That sort of makes me feel bad when I tease him, but he's not so crazy that I feel like I'm way out of line. Don't know.

#257

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:43 PM

Oooh, thank you, Josh! Recipe snagged and into my file. If there's one thing I do miss about SoCal, it's all the excellent Mexican food.

#258

Posted by: the_fishiologist Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:46 PM

mmm.. tortillas - may have to try this one. I've never made my own tortillas.

So, I just played my bagpipes for a Catholic funeral. Didn't burst into flames on the doorstep, & the pastor even wants me back ("but do you play anything quieter?" "umm.. no"). Spread the atheist love!

#259

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:46 PM

Sorry, my answer was a little unclear. K is predetermined for a single run of the program, but the method itself involves multiple runs. No study I've read has only reported results at one K. I was more answering Antiochus generally than talking about any specific study.

But I think Antiochus was responding to the video, which talks about the Rosenberg study specifically. Problems, again, discussed in the chapter I mentioned above.

I have pointed this out to several people at SEED Media, including, I think, Adam Bly, and I hope they respond accordingly in a similar fashion (And no, not by arresting PZ or those responding at Pharyngula, but instead, by inflicting the harshest penalty possible that they can do at both PZ and Pharyngula.).

This is theater of the absurd. I have to say this comment (sockpuppet? don't know) made me furious:

...I offer whatever apology is needed to Sheril and others from those of us in the Pharyngula community who do not align ourselves with this petty lunacy – there are those of us who don’t agree with you, but also don’t need to tap into hate and primitive emotion to do so....

Who the hell are you? And who do you think you are offering anything on behalf of anyone but yourself?

The recent DRAMA and arseholery from Greg has been amusing as an outsider,

*glares, calmly, at Louis*

I nearly starfarted when Mooney--MOONEY, of all people--appeared on MSNBC to discuss the vaccine-autism (non)link with Snyderman, Scarborough et al a few weeks ago, and I felt petty then, too, because he actually said everything I would have hoped a representative of science might say. I wish i could be more magnanimous about it, but my shriveled, rancorous heart just can't take the strain.

I wouldn't feel too bad. Just before that he did this

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/02/building_bridges_to_the_leaders_of_the_a.php

Orac's reaction to which prompted this

http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2010/02/important_news_someone_says_st.php

#260

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:47 PM

@Ol'Greg

Is it intentional that your name leads to a directory listing instead of a web page? If not, changing it to "*/music.html" would properly display the music subpage of your website instead of a directory listing of your music files.

#261

Posted by: triskelethecat Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:48 PM

Testing the HTML toolbar:

testing
testing
one1
two2
three3

Not sure I am doing this right

Hey...it works. Cool. Thanks!

#262

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:48 PM

Josh... I'm totally going to try making those tonight.

They're easy, but consider your first few roll-outs practice. The key is really, really liberally flouring the surface, and the rolling pin. Don't be afraid of the flour - otherwise the dough will stick and tear.

Their irregular shape is part of the charm, too. Let me know how you do. They're really amazingly good for something so simple. I brought them to a potluck last weekend, and no one in the entire room had ever had homemade tortillas. They were raving like they'd discovered food for the first time.

#263

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:49 PM

I think it is quite clear that SEED Media needs to do something to PZ Myers and Pharyngula. IMHO a mere slap on the wrist would be a most unsatisfactory response.

Kw*k still wants PZ to send him a camera.

#264

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:55 PM

Speaking of ERV, hasn't Kw*k long been banned from there, for stalking Abbie? I may be wrong. Seems like being banned from (at least) two of the leading Scienceblogs - including the one you're complaining about - would somewhat diminish your credibility here.

#265

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:57 PM

Speaking of ERV, hasn't Kw*k long been banned from there, for stalking Abbie?

Yes.

#266

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 5:58 PM

Is it intentional that your name leads to a directory listing instead of a web page? If not, changing it to "*/music.html" would properly display the music subpage of your website instead of a directory listing of your music files.

Haha... yeah it's intentional. My website is so old and ugly. I made it one night and had every intention of building a good one. I did start one with some nice CSS interface but I never got it to where I liked it. Then I stopped making art for a while after I left grad school.

Now I sort of want to make a better website but part of me wonders what the point would be.... *trails off into depression*.... *emerges*... anyway.

I was showing some one some new songs I had written that we were going to work on... and I dumped them there. So then I just linked to the directory ever since.

I have plans. I really do. To make a new recording of the songs that were going to be on the cd that seems to be falling apart due to people who kind of suck. I'm terrible at editing and recording. I also don't really have anyone around to play anything besides what I play. Not that I would bother because like I said, I'm piss poor at editing. And yet I am trying even as I type to get a good recording so I can make a video for it... and then post it on vimeo or youtube (poor youtube where I dumped a handful of vids of me practicing) and and and...


bleh.

But yeah. I know it goes to the directory. Sorry if that was waaaaay more response than you asked for.

#267

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:01 PM

You know what, people? It's only midnight, but I'll go to bed. I'm tired enough (Pharyngula kept me up too long the whole week), and this way I'll wake up hungry and can start to cook soon. :-)

#268

Posted by: marcus Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:01 PM

There once was a young man quite dear,
He was atheist, rationalist, and queer.
He drank and he posted,
'Til he brain was right toasted,
In pursuit of the Infinite Beer.

#269

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:02 PM

OK well so comment #268 on this subThread would be Comment #33333 overall for teh Thread.

Except that recently, by accident, looking for something else, and to my dismay, believe me, I discovered a mmmmm a discrepancy between the count I had for a particular subThread and the number that appeared on PZ's portcullis post. A difference of one comment. But so then of course I wondered, and checked a few, and damn it, found another.

I do not know the causes of these discrepancies; I suspect moderation and global spam-away measures as possibilities as well as me being stoned or whatever.

But the point is that I can not at present vouch for the accuracy of the Count as cross-validated with the current contents of archived subThreads.

I guess I'm going to have to change everything.

#270

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:04 PM

Rip yourself off the computer and eat. Something. Anything but the furniture.
Done. I was running an experiment and couldn't leave the lab--didn't realize how empty I was until the endorphins wore off :O. I've since ransacked my officemates desk and turned up Pita chips and a heatable packet of Palak Paneer. Topped it off with a purloined Venchi chocolate. Brain functions returning to normal.
Some exercise would be good too. I've been so freaking weak now I almost dread working out again. It's going to be frustrating.
I hear you--it's hard to get motivated when you've been out of it for a while. Try to go with the 'something is better than nothing' mantra--even if the 'something' is a 15 minute walk around the neighborhood, or 10 pushups before bed, or whatever. For me, it's all about delineating clear goals. I can't just jump in and start swimming until I get to 3000 meters--it's broken up into a set of smaller chunks of drills, sprints, warm ups & downs,etc. I get bored to tears with anything chunk larger than 400 without a break, but it's also psychologically very satisfying for me to reach a big goal by breaking it up into smaller pieces.

Re: Kw*k et al...man, every time I think they can't possibly sink any lower, they do. I'm still to angry to comment over there, but my hat's off to all of you with the chops to stay the course.

#271

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:07 PM

Sorry if that was waaaaay more response than you asked for.

No need to apologize for unsolicited information. I offered an unsolicited question, and fair is fair :-). If music is something you enjoy doing (it seems like it is?), I do hope you can come to a solution that works for you!

#272

Posted by: blf Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:07 PM

We've all(?) familiar with denialism, albeit mostly scientific denialism: Of AGW, evolution, et al. Today in the IHT (International Herald Tribune, “The global edition of the NYTimes”) I read about financial denialism; that is, denying that you've been had by a conman: This is the NYTimes version of the piece, which in the IHT had a better title, Victims in Denial See Conspiracies:

[“Buyer’s denial”] is the belief that somehow a fraud was not what it seemed to be, and that there was still a way to avoid losing the money the victim had foolishly invested.

“One has to ignore a lot of data to come to that conclusion. But that may be better than having to admit to yourself that it is over and you’re never going to get your money back,” said Dean G. Kilpatrick, the director of the National Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center and a professor at the Medical University of South Carolina. “It stands to reason that some would prefer to believe something else.”

To conclude that, it may be necessary to believe that there is some large conspiracy involving the government. Otherwise, why would prosecutors have wrongly claimed there was a huge fraud?

#273

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:08 PM

Still hungry, but not enough that I could eat anything right now. Eating will have to wait for tomorrow.

Speaking of ERV, hasn't Kw*k long been banned from there, for stalking Abbie?

Not only for that – it seems he kept expecting her to ban anyone who disagreed with him.

#274

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:10 PM

Oh and yeah... if you want to see the old thing in all it's ugly tabled half finished and awesomely out of touch glory just delete the /music but... uh... it's not worth it.

You could try just googling my name for more sporting fun. I was torn between linking to that site in the hopes I might be inspired towards a manic night of website building.


Ooooor to my blog. Which I don't keep up very well. But I put a funny picture of a note found in our company toilets there.

#275

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:13 PM

negentropyeater: It does look as if the paranioa has reached a climax with John Kwok’s latest remark. I wonder if someone will be able to beat him ?

Well played, sir. Well played indeed.
*applause*

#276

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:14 PM

Mostly in trying to sort out negentropy's question about why Kwok mentioned the Elton John threat arrest if he did not mean to compare the situations.

Is it possible to be more incoherent and paranoid than Kwok ?

First he says he's not equating PZ with the guy issuing death threats to Elton John. But after being asked why he mentionned it, he says that if the police could arrest such a guy, than SEED should inflict the harshest penalty possible on PZ and his blog.

Kwok is definitely mad.

#277

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:16 PM

Done.

:-)

or 10 pushups before bed

Let's see how many I can do.

...Didn't quite finish the fifth. And there's that uncomfortable tingling in my lips from the increased blood pressure.

All my power in the legs. Plus, my arms are so long I'm at a mechanical disadvantage :-þ

#278

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:18 PM

Sven,

We trusted you to keep an accurate count of posts and now you've let us down. I predict Josh OSG will be crying himself to sleep tonight. Ol'Greg won't be working on her website due to worry about when post 33333 actually appeared. And I'll have to be rude to at least one l-wordian before I can regain my composure.

Aren't you ashamed of yourself? I know Louis is ashamed of you.

#279

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:20 PM

Let's see how many I can do. ...Didn't quite finish the fifth. And there's that uncomfortable tingling in my lips from the increased blood pressure.

I'll cry if I can only do 10. Two months ago I was doing 100 (breaks in between though)

#280

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:23 PM

@Stoney Curtis #269:

You're fired, pothead.

#281

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:23 PM

5 is a good start though David M. Before I was doing 100 I had not been able to do 1.

Maybe a couple years ago? I weighed 120 but I had nooo strength/tone. Then I got into dance and yoga... and then I started wanting to be able to do handstands....

#282

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:28 PM

Huh, for some reason my last post doesn't even show up as awaiting moderation on The Intersection. Not calling foul yet since it's glitched like that before, but funny that it happens the one time I don't copy-paste it to another window before submitting. It went something like...

so you are afterall equating the guy posting a video of himself stating that Elton John should be killed with PZ letting a stupid comment through onnot removing a sardonic comment from his blog !

It's also obvious that PZ isn't even trying to keep up with the comment threads at the moment. He's just hit and run posting to the front page between events at the atheist convention in Australia.

btw I think Paul mentionned Glenn Beck because you’re both paranoid.

More specifically, it was in reference to Kwok's "I'm not comparing these two situations, but don't they look a whole lot alike?". That stuff is Beck's bread and butter.

#283

Posted by: blf Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:30 PM

In my absence, I'll be accepting comments on what I should have for supper.

You can't have mine! (Mostly because I ate it.) A starter of pâté de canard, and then a risotto aux Saint-Jacques, with a gaspacho d'ananas dessert. All washed down with a fine wine.

#284

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/WAaBq30jsI6Yp8BbN8_PR3Oxjc4C#b3dc9 Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:38 PM

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/12/2010-03-12_federal_appeals_court_upholds_use_of_word_god_in_pledge_of_allegiance_on_us_curr.html

A pair judge has decided that god has nothing to do with religion and there is a poll that needs help. From the article they dont seem to understand that the words 'under god' were not in the original pledge, nor is the pledge around for the founding fathers. I was in school when they added god to the pledge of allegiance and it still doesn't sound right to me after all these years. I havn't said it in years.

Let's go sort them out !

Britomart

#285

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:43 PM

With reference to my fix in 282 of negentropyeater's Intersection Post, a funny thought occurred to me. The commenters there get up in arms regularly because dirty words come out on a blog where 99.99999% of posts are never positively approved by the moderator, while posting on a cesspool with plenty of objectionable content where basically any content longer than 4 lines is actively approved for posting by the moderators. It's just...baffling.

#286

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:52 PM

update

#287

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 6:58 PM

...a possibly imprecise update, but still.

My present feeling is that there are only the 2 errors already identified, that they neatly cancel each other out, and so all is copacetic.

But I'll check.
uh, mañana.

#288

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:04 PM

I wonder if that's actually true. You see, after I've been eating solid massive chocolate for an hour or two, I'm simply out of hunger, and supper has to be postponed...
well, it's how it works for me. I seem to only have two modes (hungry and stuffed), so if I didn't schedule my meals, I'd eat ridiculous amounts of food, which I can't afford, both financially and weight-wise. I've been known to eat a whole loaf of (German) bread (or several bags of chips, or 5kg of nectarines) in a day.

So, I have to make sure I only eat 3 distinct meals a day. it means I'm almost always a bit hungry, but it beats feeling nauseatingly stuffed and gaining any more weight.

#289

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:10 PM

Religious Snail Mucus

The Giant African Snail is prohibited in the U.S. without special approval. You have to have a special permit and the snails can only be used for scientific research. Experts say the snail, which can grow up to 10 inches, can devastate ecosystems; it eats more than 500 plant species, even plaster and stucco and can reproduce on its own.
Stewart says his religion, Ifa Orisha, uses the snails in healing ceremonies. Some followers said however they got violently sick, lost weight and developed strange lumps in their stomachs after ingesting the snail mucus.
#290

Posted by: chuckgoecke Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:16 PM

For those of us left back in the northern hemisphere, a little didg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFGvNxBqYFI&feature;=related

#291

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:22 PM

Holy crap, this is sad.
I guess the benefit of ousting McLeroy can only stretch so far.

#292

Posted by: SteveV Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:23 PM

Paul #285
Would they accept this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWMF07nFso

#293

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:33 PM

Jen, I've been reading about that mess. It's beyond sad. From your link:

The board approves the amendment, taking Thomas Jefferson OUT of the world history standards.
Board member Barbara Cargill wants to insert a discussion of the right to bear arms in a standard that focuses on First Amendment rights and the expression of various points of view. [...] But the amendment passes anyway.
The Texas State Board of Education has stricken from the standards references to “capitalism” and “free market” because the board’s right-wingers think “capitalism” is a negative term.
Board member Cynthia Dunbar argues that the Founders didn’t intend for separation of church and state in America. And she’s off on a long lecture about why the Founders intended to promote religion. She calls this amendment “not historically accurate.” [...] The Texas State Board of Education today refused to require that students learn that the Constitution prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others. They voted to lie to students by omission.

And on it goes. Geez, why don't they just declare "no school for kids! no mandatory education!" These kids brains will end up shriveled rather than enriched.

#294

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:33 PM

Snail mucus, eh?

Better to have "the crappuccino delicacy".

#295

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:36 PM

I just found out PZ is coming to Syracuse next month! Less than a month from now, in fact. I am... I can't.... there is a very happy dance going on inside my brain right now, let me tell you.

#296

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:37 PM

I wouldn't feel too bad. Just before that he did this http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/02/building_bridges_to_the_leaders_of_the_a.php Orac's reaction to which prompted this http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2010/02/important_news_someone_says_st.php

Yes, I followed that Saaaahgaaaaah--in fact CM's recent accommodationist-toned article coming right before his MSNBC appearance only added to my outrage. It galled me to no end that of all the people who have spoken out tirelessly agains the antivax lunacy--people who could have capably filled that seat--bridge-building milquetoast Mooney got the call. *fume*
I should be thankful that he didn't go all 'outspoken scientists are driving worried parents to the other side' on the air, I suppose.

And now, I must away, to the gritty, chaotic third grade basketball tournament. Go Flesh Eaters!

#297

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:39 PM

John:

Better to have "the crappuccino delicacy".

Er, no, no thanks.

#298

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:40 PM

I got slightly bored and remembered Kirshenbaum is friendly with Isis (or so I recall, correct me if I'm wrong). I note a distinct lack of pearl-clutching when it comes to Isis's comment section:

That fucking Calliou is a bald little French asshole. He can go fuck his little bald French ass.

OMG! Rape apologetics!

Go fuck yourself asshole. And I am not the least fucking bit anonymous.

OMG, more rape apologetics! They're contributing to the rape culture!

Fuck these people, fuck them for breaking the law, knowing that they are, and perpetuating this bullshit.

OMG! They're advocating rape in return for breaking the law! The horror!

Fuck the Intersection. The only reason we're even talking about this at all is they (both the hosts and the vast majority of the commenters) have a bug up their ass about Pharyngula and are searching for excuses to raise shit.

#299

Posted by: stuv.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:42 PM

I just got accused of sexism over there. For reals, y'all.

Oh, and they're still calling it "rape imagery". Troll troll troll.

#300

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:42 PM

Geez, why don't they just declare "no school for kids! no mandatory education!" These kids brains will end up shriveled rather than enriched.
I honestly don't know which is worse--no school at all, or a state-mandated education composed of a whitewashed, overtly biased, heavily revised version of reality. No mandatory education would at least keep the hope alive that some independently motivated kids would seek to fill their empty pages with something genuine. The TBOE standards are starting to sound downright Orwellian. Brrrrrr.
#302

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:46 PM

Nice one (or three) Paul. If you haven't already posted these over at the pile-up, you totally should.

And damn, don't even get me started on Isis.

#303

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:48 PM

stuv:

I just got accused of sexism over there.

Oh now, what did you expect? I mean, look at the language you use. It's obvious violence and other anti-pearlite actions! You, you, you criminal! *clutches pearls in distress*

#304

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:58 PM

Paul - one of those quotes was from Comrade PhysioProf, who gets a pass because, well.. because. That's just how he is. Interesting that Sheril hasn't ever complained about him that I know of, though. As for Isis in general, um, I'll be in the corner with Jen specifically not talking about it.

#305

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 7:58 PM

Caillou?!

*checks*

Oh, CPP. :)

***

Apropos of nothing, I liked this recent comment by Owlmirror:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/sins_of_omission.php#comment-2345489

#306

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:03 PM

Carlie:

As for Isis in general, um, I'll be in the corner with Jen specifically not talking about it.

I'll join you both.

#307

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:06 PM

I'm watching John Barrowman on BBCAmerica "The making of me: John Barrowman". He just took his trousers off.

#308

Posted by: Owlmirror Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:07 PM

I discovered a mmmmm a discrepancy between the count I had for a particular subThread and the number that appeared on PZ's portcullis post. A difference of one comment. But so then of course I wondered, and checked a few, and damn it, found another.

What was broken?

#309

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:07 PM

David M., re push-ups,

Let's see how many I can do.

...Didn't quite finish the fifth. And there's that uncomfortable tingling in my lips from the increased blood pressure.

I used to be able to do 60-65 push-ups in two minutes. I've lost some upper-body strength lately, but can still manage 30 in one go, and 50 in under two minutes.

#310

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:08 PM

Isis swears and insults with swears* as much as anyone I've ever heard (with the exception of CPP, who is, exceptional). But of course she's Catholic, so I guess that gets her a pass.

*directed at me, btw (when she thought I was male): "In that case, you have one of three options. You can 1) leave the conversation, 2) whine like a little bitch..."

#311

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:10 PM

I should add that when I was 17, I was very, very thin and weak and had no upper-body strength. I weight-trained regularly for a couple of years, and gained a few kilos of lean muscle. I'm never going to be Arnold Schwarzenegger, but being a little fitter and stronger did make a massive difference to my self-esteem and quality of life. (So you can only imagine what my self-esteem was like in secondary school...)

#312

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:13 PM

The Texas State Board of Education has stricken from the standards references to “capitalism” and “free market” because the board’s right-wingers think “capitalism” is a negative term.

Capitalism is a specific technical term in economics. If I'm discussing capitalism I can't think of another word or short phrase to use in its place.

#313

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:15 PM

(So you can only imagine what my self-esteem was like in secondary school...)

Please do not feel insulted by the fact that I will not imagine that.

#314

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:19 PM

Capitalism is a specific technical term in economics. If I'm discussing capitalism I can't think of another word or short phrase to use in its place.

Yes, but do you think the Texas State Board of Education know that? They probably think "negative externalities" are when you paint the outside of your house an ugly colour, and a "liquidity trap" is one of those barrels for catching rainwater that runs off the roof. :-)

#315

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:20 PM

Gotta love when a woman tells an other person to whine like a little bitch. Shows that she buys into the idea that women, in general, are weak and ineffective.

#316

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:22 PM

Moniker changed back to seriousness. Though I might go all-out for a more extravagant pseudonym in future. "Walton" is so 2000s. Maybe I should be "Augustus Biscuit-Barrel IV, Prince of the Stars."

#317

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:23 PM

Just turned to it myself, Caine. I'm a bit on edge wondering how they're addressing this whole "what makes people gay" thing, but it was quite yummy watching him speak with a brogue with his family.

#318

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:24 PM

Janine:

Gotta love when a woman tells an other person to whine like a little bitch. Shows that she buys into the idea that women, in general, are weak and ineffective.

Aarrgghh, she gets on my nerves, always has.

#319

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:25 PM

So far it's really leaning towards "gay guys are effeminate and gay women are butch", which is disappointing.

#320

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:28 PM

Carlie:

I'm a bit on edge wondering how they're addressing this whole "what makes people gay" thing, but it was quite yummy watching him speak with a brogue with his family.

I loved the brogue. As soon as they brought on the guy who was gay for 17 years, then "chooses" to be straight, I said to myself, "I'm going to hear christian in 3, 2, 1..." Sure enough. Bleargh.

#321

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:31 PM

Augustus Biscuit-Barrel IV, Prince of the Stars!

Walton, sir, you have more facets than most brilliant cut diamonds.

#322

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:31 PM

Carlie, yes that was disappointing. I imagine there's more to it, at least I hope there's more to it. I wasn't gender-normative as a kid; I'm bi though. Haven't seen that one addressed.

#323

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:32 PM

Lynna waaaaay back at #218,

I'm going to take that as a compliment! LOL

Sadly no, I'm just an ex-rugby playing drunkard with delusions of adequacy and a hedonistic streak a mile wide! ;-)

----------------

SC waaaaaaaaaay-ish back at #259,

You can glare all you like, Madam. I will remain unfazed mainly through a combination of alcoholic haze and sheer bloodymindedness! ;-)

I'm not saying that every element of the episode is amusing, not all of them are, but the general ability of Greg's own-foot-marksmanship is astonishing. Astonishing to the point of making me laugh. My perspective is, of course, different from yours. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Louis

#324

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:33 PM

So far it's really leaning towards "gay guys are effeminate and gay women are butch", which is disappointing.

Reminds me of the femme lesbians who feel invisible because in straight society, people assume they are also straight and in some parts of the community, they are not quite equal.

And now I feel like I am airing dirty laundry.

#325

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:34 PM

Walton @316,

sorry, you'll have to think of another moniker, that's the name of my five month old kitten you've just quoted.

(Well, not really: his breeding name is "Josie Chocolate Chip Biscuit", and because of his considerable proportions he is already being referred to as "Tarquin... Bus-stop F'tang P'tang Olé Biscuit Barrel")

Why don't you go with something unambitious such as, Walton, Emperor of the Northern Hemisphere, and I'll take the South? Deal.

Pope Maledict DCLXVI

#326

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:35 PM

Argh - he's using navigation as a clue as to John's gayness? Again, it's taking gay and equating it to characteristics of the other gender. Argh. The directors need to be set upon by a bunch of bears and lipstick lesbians.

#327

Posted by: Owlmirror Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:35 PM

Apropos of nothing, I liked this recent comment by Owlmirror:

"What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"

/xkcd

There was a Daniel Smith that I argued with a bit here on Pharyngula, a couple of years ago. I wonder if this is the same person? I kinda doubt it, if for no other reason than the previous Daniel Smith seemed to be more aware of science, and less interested in using medieval theology in his arguments.

I suppose I could ask...

#328

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:35 PM

Hey Walton, after all this talk about mental health, I hope you don't mind if I make an observation about you.

As a less-frequent commenter over the last year, I've got a rather time-compressed impression of many of the regulars, and it seems to me that you've really become much more comfortable 'in your own skin' as of late, as the saying goes. You seem happier and more at ease. I hope this translates into your offline life as well.

(I say this because of a conversation we had quite some time ago when you expressed that you were feeling quite down, and if it's the case that you're feeling better I'm happy for you.)

#329

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:37 PM

*It just occurred to me that I might have just used terms that are not considered good ones - sorry if I did. I thought those were ok, but now that it's there in print I'm not sure.

#330

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:38 PM

Janine:

Reminds me of the femme lesbians who feel invisible because in straight society, people assume they are also straight and in some parts of the community, they are not quite equal.

That's one more marker in pointing out that orientation and gender identity just aren't as black and white as some people make it out to be.

#331

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:42 PM

Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health, Roberts L, Ahmed I, Hall S, Davison A,

good find. just saved the full pdf of that for my collection.

#332

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:42 PM

sorry, you'll have to think of another moniker, that's the name of my five month old kitten you've just quoted.

(Well, not really: his breeding name is "Josie Chocolate Chip Biscuit", and because of his considerable proportions he is already being referred to as "Tarquin... Bus-stop F'tang P'tang Olé Biscuit Barrel")

Yeah... I knew I'd subconsciously stolen the "Biscuit-Barrel" part from somewhere.

By coincidence, I think someone else posted this Python sketch (maybe on Dispatches rather than here) in response to the Texas SBOE Republican primaries. Don McLeroy certainly qualifies as an "Extremely Silly" candidate.

#333

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:48 PM

Thomas Ratliff (Sensible Party): 56,207 votes.

Don Tarquin Fim-Nim-Bim-Lim-Nim-Fim-Busstop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuit-Barrel McLeroy (Silly Party): 55,368 votes.

#334

Posted by: scooterKPFT Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:53 PM

Women's Day Falls during National Penis Week

An in depth look at how and why International Women's Day fell during National Penis Week in the United States in 2010.

A dialog so complex, it could have never evolved, it had to have been created by Scooter, Massa, Ashburn, Roy Zimmerman, and Germaine Greer.

http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner261.mp3

from http://acksisofevil.org/innerside.html

#335

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 8:53 PM

Predicting the general election already, eh Walton?

;-)

Louis

#336

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:12 PM

But Walton, what about the voting for the Extremely Silly candidate in the block of concrete?

(Note to lurkers from the Intersection: Pharyngula readers do not actually support embedding very silly politicians in slabs of concrete.)

#337

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:17 PM

As yet my understanding of the paramterization of K iin STRUCTURE s imperfect...however:

Theoretically K can be parameterized like any other variable that is being estimated. However, this leads to computational problems, so that the MCMC takes a long time to converge. I am much more familiar with phylogenetics, and I think the paramterization of K is similar to the Bayesian parameterization of Γ: although you could set a prior on any number of rate classes, it is compuationally much simpler to choose a number of rate classes a priori and allow the MCMC to estimate a posterior distribution for each class. For K, I think it is standard to select a single number of populations for each run. What I am confused about is the comparison of resulting posteriors from different K assumptions. This is where I may be wrong. Normally, the likelihood function will always increase with the number of parameters that are added to an analysis...a likelihood ration (in an ML formate) can be used to determine if added parameters increase the likelihood function sufficiently to justify the model. Models are chosen that simultaneously maximize the likelihood while minimizing the number of parameters involved. So the question is this: if K is increased does it necessarily result in an increase in the likelihood function in MCMC? Or given enough data, are all things more or less equal? In the former case, is there a way to mitigate overparameterization while still maintaining fit?

More papers.

#338

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:19 PM

likelihood ratio. Dammit, dammit, dammit.

#339

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:23 PM

Walton @316,

It is also the name of my son's Leopard gourami. The snail, however, is named Gary.

#340

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:26 PM

The snail, however, is named Gary.

Meow.

#341

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:27 PM

The snail, however, is named Gary.

My apple snail's name was Sam I Am.

#342

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:31 PM

Josh, OSG, your tortilla recipe comes at a most fortuitous time, since my husband and I were actively looking for instructions on tortilla-making.

Walton, for continuity's sake, may I suggest, "Augustus Biscuit-Barrel IV, Prince of Extra Special Dumplings, Superhero"?

And now, "Breaking News: Some Bullshit Happening Somewhere": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4Ha9HQvMo&feature;=player_embedded%23

#343

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:32 PM

Any threads with some currently posting trolls needing to be squashed?

I just spent 2 hours on the phone with my mother trying to help her with "computer problems" and I really need to blow off some steam.

Quickly.

#344

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:36 PM

Rev BDC, Pilty showed up in the vegemite thread.

#345

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:36 PM

Texas...I don't know what to say...

It happens that I'm just finishing the book I mentioned several days ago - Scandal and Civility: Journalism and the Birth of American Democracy. Part of the section on Paine and his Age of Reason:

Most supporters of Paine's politics were disappointed by his attack on Christian revelation and felt he had 'wounded the warm and tender feelings of more than a million of his real friends' (249).

Sound familiar? 1790fucking5.

Part of the last section on Jefferson:

As the presidential election loomed in 1800, the Federalist focus on Jefferson grew more urgent. Federalists, and especially Federalist clergymen, were appalled by the idea that a self-professed deist might become president of the United States....To prevent such a calamity, the Ferderalist press launched an unprecedented campaign of personal vilification against Jefferson...

Always reluctant to make public declarations about his beliefs, Jefferson refused to respond to Federalist charges of atheism and infidelity. His Republican supporters were not so complacent, and as they rushed into print to defend him, the issue of Jefferson's infidelity quickly came to dominate the campaign of 1800.

Some Republicans, loyal to the principle of a strict separation between religion and politics, defended Jefferson's public silence on the matter of religious faith....

But such voices were rare. Few Republicans were brave enought to challenge Federalist arguments on principle and argue that Jefferson had no duty to reveal his religious beliefs, or, even more controversially, no duty to be religious. Almost without exception, they fell back on Jefferson's authorship of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom and his well-known commitment to religious pluralism....

But defending Jefferson's commitment to religious liberty failed to address the central issue raised by Federalists: the relationship between personal religious belief and political character. And it was precisely Jefferson's silence about his religious beliefs and his understanding of religion as private that disturbed his political and religious opponents (269-71).

#346

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:38 PM

In English, polenta sometimes refers to the raw corn meal and not the porridge. I'm guessing that's the case here.

It is...

#347

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:38 PM

I've just caught up on reading the 300 posts that were already in the thread when I got to it, and have noticed no one has yet pointed that not only was PZ being plied with beer whenever he had a hand free, but people were filling his pockets with stubbies, so his jacket had to be balanced with equal numbers of bottles on each side. (I was reminded slightly of Otto Frisch's well-known testament to John von Neumann's drinking prowess, but PZ was rather more optimistic.)

ye false Pope Maledicte

#349

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:45 PM

It's okay Caine, he's being Friendly. (Anecdotally, most Quakers I've met are very far from being the usual objectionable religionists.)

#350

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:50 PM

phi1ip, actually I'm finding him to be somewhat of a disingenuous snot. Quakers might be among the least obnoxious xtians, but they still shove their religion out front and center.

#351

Posted by: scooterKPFT Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 9:55 PM

Thanks for responding to
""((Walton script))"" ./~ W#alton [{character }]

I created Walton..lton few a years bac../-...as a character... can't believe yall fe
./~ W#alton --end ll for this

so long, but now /~ W#alton '~\
\cntrls script conversations:::;: has with meat driven kybd over-ride admin.. have fun is PERL, ??';!`~ this cracks me

#352

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:00 PM

phi1ip: I thought a stubby was, well, er, um.

Never mind.

As for unobjectionable religionists, I'd go with Unitarian. Though UU's are about as sheeplike as a herd of cats. My mom and dad are/were church elders at a UU congregation in ME. Both are atheists. It works.

#353

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:03 PM

I hear. I was only saying that he appears to be capable of rational conversation aside from his various irrational religious beliefs, which is what I normally find to be typical of the Friends; unlike the fundie wingnuts, with whom the irrationality would extend to any subject you cared to mention.

However he's been gradually tying himself in knots with his not very well-thought-out posts, so I won't hold out for his long-time survival on the thread. :)

#354

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:06 PM

As for unobjectionable religionists, I'd go with Unitarian.

Meh, maybe my cynicism has seriously increased, but I find them all (religious types) overly soaked in woo of some sort; they all make me feel weary.

Quakerboy is now flinging out all the same old, boring, pointless christian 'arguments' - it always comes down to that in the end.

#355

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:09 PM

A stubby... what were you thinking of? ;-þ

#357

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:26 PM

Caine: My parents are into whatever the Woo-of-the-Day is. They fit in. I do admire a church that has The Origin of the Species, The Book of Hopi, Mao's Little Red Book, Marx's Das Kapital, and assorted other philosophy and natural history books -- yeah, plus the Bible.

phi1ip: I was thinking of a cigar. Yeah, that's it. A cigar.

Rev. BDC: Great news. Of course, now the anti-vaxxers will claim that was a political ruling and not based on 'science.'

My (((Son))) has Asbergers (no longer called that), a form of autism. The autism-vaccine linkers have pissed me off for years.

#358

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:31 PM

iambilly:

My parents are into whatever the Woo-of-the-Day is.

Part of me is inclined to go with "whatever floats their boat" however, that fights the part of me which is aware that all belief, even the belief-in-belief supports and anchors all the other more virulent forms of religious belief.

#359

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:32 PM

Meh, maybe my cynicism has seriously increased, but I find them all (religious types) overly soaked in woo of some sort; they all make me feel weary.

ditto, if anything, my tolerance for woo of all types has noticeably decreased over the last 5 years.

hope it's not just a case of "get off my lawn" syndrome.

#360

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:33 PM

Walton #314

<snortle> Well done, Sir.

#361

Posted by: kantalope Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:36 PM

I just came across this weirdness
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/04/AR2010020404535.html
Maybe there should be a Pharyngula flyer sent out too.

#362

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:37 PM

hope it's not just a case of "get off my lawn" syndrome.

I think it's a variant - This has got to be the 876,493 time I've heard the same, stupid argument. Aargghh.

#363

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:38 PM

Sadly no, I'm just an ex-rugby playing drunkard with delusions of adequacy and a hedonistic streak a mile wide! ;-)

and chemistry... don't forget the chemistry!

#364

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:40 PM

Caine: Their whole life has consisted of drifting further to the left and further away from organized religion and further away from belief. They're not all that great on separating the sensational TV news story about the effectiveness of snail mucous in treating ingrown toe nails from the fine print in the actual study which is still in a very preliminary stage and is funded by the snail mucous lobby.

All: I just realized that we are now approaching 400 comments on a thread in which our tentacled overlord is in Australia. Drinking beer. And no one has brought up the University of Woomera's Philosophy Department!

Okay, so I'm slow. But sometimes I'm not real quick.

#365

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:42 PM

*directed at me, btw (when she thought I was male): "In that case, you have one of three options. You can 1) leave the conversation, 2) whine like a little bitch..."

And here I thought you were going to mention the time she told you to shut your pie hole, with the "floor is covered with semen" demotivational poster.

#366

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:49 PM

iambilly, well, that's good I suppose, and they can always be nudged towards more critical thinking. :)

And no one has brought up the University of Woomera's Philosophy Department!

No one has brought up Four Ecks either, and its vegemite, drop bear and beer contents. ;p

#367

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:51 PM

And here I thought you were going to mention the time she told you to shut your pie hole, with the "floor is covered with semen" demotivational poster.

That line was from that post (which still makes me laugh). (I'm also still giggling about the Caillou thing.)

#368

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 10:52 PM

Josh, OSG: you so need a cast-iron tortilla press. Lovely round tortillas, almost uniform thickness, no skill needed (i.e. perfect for me). Here, take mine:

*lobs it over from Massachusetts*

#369

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:00 PM

Josh, OSG: you so need a cast-iron tortilla press

Hmmm. I'd probably file that under 'unnecessary kitchen stuff'. *Don't whack me with it! Half the time, when making something that generally calls for tortillas, I make frybread instead. I haven't had a taco in a tortilla for ages. Much better to pile all the fixin's on frybread.

#370

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:04 PM

SC:

That line was from that post

I remember when she was informed you weren't a male and she didn't so much as blink, let alone think. Just kept on attacking. That was something else. It was last time I bothered to read her blog too.

#371

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:14 PM

Caillou is actually very very sweet and I think PhysioProf is a big fat poopyhead for saying what he did.

#372

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:22 PM

I remember when she was informed you weren't a male and she didn't so much as blink, let alone think. Just kept on attacking.

Ooooh. I was lurking through that!

She seemed completely incapable of recognizing the argument being made, and made a complete assumption about SC's gender on the attack.

#373

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:26 PM

Santana in a Blackhawks jersey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgH_oVplF5Q&feature;=related

#374

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:29 PM

Ol'Greg, yeah, she's a piece of work. She has always struck me as someone who is only happy within the confines of stereotypes. I find that disturbing on several levels.

#375

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:32 PM

And it's a threat of sexual violence against a child! And it's hideously hateful toward the French! That he's animated does not make it OK. CPP owes everyone who's ever read blog comments an apology. He screwed up. He should just admit it.

***

I remember when she was informed you weren't a male and she didn't so much as blink, let alone think. Just kept on attacking.

Everything about her response was so odd and funny.

#376

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:36 PM

Cubanos positzos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGSI8CuH1nQ

#377

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 12, 2010 11:43 PM

real Cubans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ8K-9ztWLc

#379

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:06 AM

Flesh Eaters Victorious!

Unmentionable supper consumed!

The siren song of Teh Thread beckons....

Walton: I echo Brownian's comment at #328--I've lurked (or been unable to comment due to the registration glitchorama) for much of the past year, but I've read enough to agree that your personal growth has been apparent--and impressive. Keep up the good work, and remember that 20 is still really, really damn young. It's easy to feel like you've reached your full intellectual potential--moreso than ever after the period of self-reflection and expansion you've just completed--but you're not even close to being done yet. At least, it would be a shame if you were.

SC: Yeah, Jefferson--that fucking secular progressive. No self respecting Texan (and, by extension, any of the millions of schoolchildren issued textbooks printed in Texas) needs to muddy the History of Our Pristine Nation by bringing him into the story. And if you find that offputting, I think you just need to reflect on your offensive white male privilege...uh...missy. :P

Caine, iambilly, Ichthyic, re: the Woo. I live in Eugene, Oregon. The woo flows strong and thick here. The vaccine compliance rates are low enough to have attracted the attention of the CDC, people freak the fuck out if anyone even suggests fluoridating the water supply, and one must go to unbelievable lengths to find a family doctor or a veterinarian (!!) who doesn't practice 'holistic' medicine. Last fall the principal of my kids' school sent home some absurd flyer about avoiding/treating H1N1 via megadoses of vitamins and the use of Neti pots. My tolerance is worn down to a nub with these people.


#380

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:16 AM

Last fall the principal of my kids' school sent home some absurd flyer about avoiding/treating H1N1 via megadoses of vitamins and the use of Neti pots.

! I think I might have been tempted to wander around in a biohazard suit during flu season.

#382

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:22 AM

scooter, nice! Fripp my brain why don'tcha
Can you put a year on that?

(I thought the Walton-bot bit was funny btw)

#383

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:22 AM

Quakerboy, in http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/uh-ohwe_arent_being_nice_and_r.php#c2346526 now says:

Nerd, you mean to say "a falsehood", not a lie. It would be a lie if I didn't believe it.

*facepalm*

#384

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:24 AM

Yeah, Quaker boy isn't all there. Time for bed.

#386

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:31 AM

@jenbphillips

he woo flows strong and thick here.

Here in Vermont, too. That's one of the few downsides (for me) of living in a predominantly liberal area - my fellow libs have a statistically significant tendency to gravitate towards bullshit altie-med anti-science stuff. There are all manner of nonsense "holistic medical practices" around here, and entire "studios" devoted to "energy work." My hairdresser the other day was going on and on about a "new girl who's coming to the salon next week to practice reiki." There I sat, under threat of scissors, having to listen to her tell me about how she could "feel the energy pushing down my head" while this fool waved her hands around without touching her once.

#387

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:33 AM

I'll take the more and add the fucking year:
7/28/1974
Bruford, then; I thought so. Incredible sound.

#388

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:38 AM

Re Janine's comment @58:

Please, everyone with a suitable location or other excuse (might visit New York, have children, etc.), write to the New York subway commission and the city of New York and tell them that you are deeply offended and upset by anti-choice ads on YOUR transit system.

#390

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:52 AM

ha!
bring it

#391

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:06 AM

ZZzziiipp Beeepp Booiink! Oh, and Pop. (As if appearing suddenly.)

I finally got Movable Type to work (it only took paying attention for five minutes) and it's like a warp of some kind. Instead of passively reading I can suddenly comment again.
But then I am a very lazy man.

I'm a very lazy man
That's what I am
All this blog astounds me
And I think I understand
That what's spoken
Is a token
Of how to see

When all the stars are falling down
Into the sea and on the ground
And angry voices carry on the wind
Contrary points I've come to see
Indicative of you and me
A path that leads to where
We've come to be

I'm a very lazy man
That's what I am
All the web surrounds me
And I think I've come to see
That we're going
To keep growing
Wait and see

*apologies to the Moody Blues. The real song is Melancholy Man from the album To Our Children's Children's Children*

Apropos to nothing except the main thrust of this blog's inestimable worth and inertia, I've just been watching Turner Classic Movies. The Monster That Challenged The World just concluded with the demise of the radioactive mollusk that looked just like a caterpillar. Now playing is Them in which the radioactive ants meet a similar fate. Reminds me of all the monsters that we create or accept. B grade with bad acting and embarrassing dialog with a dose of misinterpreted science and a couple good shots of sexy legs, just to keep one interested don'tcha know.

Hello again. Nice to be here. Please, carry on.

#392

Posted by: scooterKPFT Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:16 AM

monado:

upset by anti-choice ads on YOUR transit system.

We'd love to have a transit system, but we would have to trademark "Jesus" to pay for it, and he's already Transit syste guy, who knocked upped the daughte emperatuire almighty whatever they're buyingit for these dayzwes.

I'm just sayin

#393

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:20 AM

Scooter, you rock. Frippertronics was once a main spar in my wings.

Prince Rupert Laments and Moon Child still cast fragments of melody and dissonance at my brain.

What was the name of that effort that Fripp led for budding pickers? The League of Clever Guitarists or something. Wall of sound, man.

#394

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:22 AM

Crudely Wrott:

The Monster That Challenged The World just concluded with the demise of the radioactive mollusk that looked just like a caterpillar.

I've always said the year of my birth was the year of some of the worst movies ever made, and that one is a fine example of a bad, bad, '57 flick. I watched it anyway. ;)

Now playing is Them in which the radioactive ants meet a similar fate.

Ahem, it's Them! I first saw this movie when I was around 5 or 6; I loved it then and still do.

#395

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:23 AM

Crafty.
Crafty guitarists. hoo.

#396

Posted by: scooterKPFT Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:29 AM

What was the name of that effort that Fripp led for budding pickers? The league of how do ya spell google?

They rocked/sucked I been sayin it the whole time.\

True Story

#397

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:32 AM

Yup! That's it.

I have a brother who is pretty crafty with a guitar. Mandolin too.

Geeze. All the great music that we know and don't get to hear anymore unless we play it for ourselves. That is, those who don't know of it (them younguns) might never get to know it exists.

Fortunately for me, maybe for you for all I know, your parents played their music on the home Hi Fi when I was coming up. To this day I'm gone when I here Henri Mancini, 101 Strings, Nat King Cole, Burl Ives, Paul Robeson, Kingston Trio . . .

. . . shit. I'm old.

Except in the company of the young at heart. Sinatra sang something about that, didn't he?

#398

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:41 AM

grumble

Strike the y in your in the first line of para four my last.

our parents.

#399

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:49 AM

Caine: I make frybread

Will you marry us?

There are damned few culinary deficiencies about Berkeley, but we can get frybread only once a year, at that powwow in October.

jenbphillips: I live in Eugene, Oregon. The woo flows strong and thick here.

Oneupspersonship from me: See above.

CW: . . . shit. I'm old.

See above above.

You kids get off my LAN!

#400

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:50 AM

@#98: Kage Baker died!?!?!? Hell.

Uterine cancer. Let's hope that with HPV vaccine, our daughters can avoid it.

#401

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:14 AM

Ron:

Will you marry us?

Sure. :D There are so many recipes for frybread, and everyone is convinced theirs is the best. I tried soooo many; what mattered in the end was practice. It's not whether you use water or milk, it's the cooking process. My first results were beyond culinary horror. I have several recipes I work from, but this one is my favourite:

Mary's Good Eating Frybread

3 Cups Unbleached White Flour
2 Teaspoons Baking Powder
3 Tablespoons Favorite Oil
1 Tablespoon Salt
4 Tablespoons Honey
2 Cups Hot (Not Warm) Water
1 Tablespoon Yeast (+ or -)
Extra Needed Flour little at a time... 2 to 4 cups
Cooking Lard or Oil... Lard is best...

Mix honey, oil, and salt. Stir in the HOT water. Mix very well. Sprinkle yeast on the mixture. Cover with a cloth and let stand around 10 minutes or until yeast bubbles up. Add flour and baking powder. Stir together well. Add more flour until the mixture is firm and sticks to your hands. Use 2 to 4 cups flour for this process.

Put this dough into greased bowl. Cover and allow to rise until it doubles. This should take around 1 hour. Divide in half. Then break each half into around 8 pieces. Make each piece into a ball and permit to rise until ready to fry. Heat lard or oil to frying temperature.

Flatten ball of dough with hands, stretching and pulling until it is flat and thin. Flatten the dough to around 6 to 8 inches in diameter. Place in hot lard, cook until golden brown, around 1 1/2 minutes (+ or -). Allow grease to drain on paper towel and serve hot with honey, powdered sugar, or as base for meat and fixings.

Important... Start the mixture 2 to 2 1/2 hours before serving. Remember... When cooking fry bread, be sure to put a hole in the middle, to allow the grease to come up and fry the center. This helps prevent a doughy center. Also, cast iron is best for cooking.

Then, wojapi to pour on the top of fresh frybread:

Wojapi

4 cups water
2 cups sugar
4 lbs blueberries (can use strawberries, any berries or peaches too)
Half a package of cornstarch or arrowroot to thicken

Mash the fruit (with peaches it is good to cook them a little first). Reserve some of the water to mix up the cornstarch or arrowroot in.
Put mashed fruit, sugar and water into pan and bring slowly to boil. Remove from heat and stir in cornstarch mixture. Watch for lumps!
Place back on low heat and stir well until thickened to the consistency of pudding.
Note: Can eat this over frybread, ice cream, or over biscuits... any way ya want! Its good!

And, because Frybread is just so very...

Our Frybread
who art in the skillet
Hallowed be thy name
Thy mealtime come
Thee will be done
in the middle as thou art on the edges.

Give us this day
our daily frybread
and indulge us our gluttony
as we indulge those who are hungry before us

For thine is the butter
and the honey
and the cinnamon forever and ever!

#402

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:21 AM

Caine, what a fab frybread recipe, thank you!

Oh, and:

Also, cast iron is best for cooking.

Girl, I know that's right!

#403

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:23 AM

Most supporters of Paine's politics were disappointed by his attack on Christian revelation and felt he had 'wounded the warm and tender feelings of more than a million of his real friends' (249).
Sound familiar? 1790fucking5.
*facepalm*
#404

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:25 AM

It occurs to me someone ought to start archiving all the great recipes we swap on Pharyngula, and put them together in a cookbook. I shall endeavor to start the project.

#405

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:29 AM

Josh, almost all of my cookware is cast; much of it I inherited from my great-grandmothers and grandparents. I also have some (not nearly enough) Le Creuset. I love my Doufeu.

#406

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:32 AM

Caine, I have some cast iron that I've bought myself; never been lucky enough to inherit it from the family.

I'm having a hell of a time getting my favorite skillet to keep a proper seasoning. That thing needs to get a charred, smooth, black, non-stick coating on it, but I can't get there. Any suggestions to kick-start it?

#407

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:38 AM

Ronsullivan, I can remember two of my teachers using the 'hand boiler' as classroom examples of heat conduction and Boyle's Law. Once in jr.high and once in my sophomore science class taught by Mrs. Miliken at a small New Hampshire school.

Mrs. Miliken actually arranged for one of the Apollo command modules to be donated to my old alma mater. My brother took me by the school in the mid eighties on some lame pretext. (I graduated in 1969 with 96 classmates.) As we pulled into the school grounds I saw it gracing a corner of the parking lot; I gaped, stuttered and pointed. My brother just said, "Mrs. Miliken pulled some strings we didn't know she had." I said, "Thanks, Mrs. M."

It may not be there anymore, I don't know. But I do remember a rush of pride in and admiration for someone who taught me earnestly and evoked an sense of earnest inquiry with me that is still present, front and center.

Did I mention she sanctioned a class experiment involving teeth immersed in Coca Cola? No. You should have been there.

Shit, I'm still old. Not that I'm worried or complaining. The fact just is. Thanks for leading my memory there, a breath of youthful (and useful) air.

#408

Posted by: dexitroboper Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:43 AM

Webcomic win.

#409

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:43 AM

Is it old cast iron? If it is, you'd have to go through a cleaning process first. A great place to find beautiful, seriously seasoned cast iron is in thrift stores.

There's good seasoning advice at: http://www.jfolse.com/fr_seasoniron.htm but keep in mind that seasoning is a process, that beautiful black patina takes time to achieve. The more you cook with it, the better it will get.

#410

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:53 AM

PZ, just remember that you can hold one mug or bottle of beer for a long time without anyone getting miffed that you're not drinking with them. It's a way to save your liver form well-meaning hosts who refill every empty glass and shove a drink into any empty hand.

My S.O.* once observed a famous Nobel laureate author gently waving around the same 3/4-full beer stein for most of an evening.

*POSSLQ

#411

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:03 AM

Anybody still keep a sourdough starter batch going?

My father had one that lasted almost thirty years. When I was a sprout he made pancakes for breakfast. The old man would lay the batter on a griddle with eggs and bacon (!) and produce a plateful of caloric delight that would, according to his deep culinary wisdom, "stick to your ribs."

Flour, water, yeast. Crock pot. Glass jug. Some of the old timers carried starter in greased leather pouches. I've heard of batches that have been extant for decades. I only managed six years on my last poor attempt. But the saddle pads stuck to my ribs just like old Pap said they would. At least until lunch time.

Plus they were a great vehicle for maple syrup, butter, eggs and bacon(!). Whenever I get settled I believe I'll start a new batch. Seeing as my children have children there is the chance that my batch might be around for a long time. Imagine that. Poor ol' Pap would grin and so would I.

#412

Posted by: Kellach Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:15 AM

Wow,all these wonderful recipes and marvelous cooks. I had a can of Campbell's Bean w/ Bacon soup. Too lazy to cook so just spooned the condensed mass onto crackers and ate it that way. Wish I had had a nice glass of Sparkling Muscatel - Idaho's Finest Wine - to go with it. (Would you care to sniff the cap, sir?)

Ah well, being kwok stalked so have to go commune with the ghost of Frank McCourt for advice on avoiding him. (kwok, Frank wants to know why you never returned the used underwear you stole? He thought you were willing to trade it for the camera.)

Walton, Brownian is right, you are much changed, more confident.

#413

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:19 AM

Crudely Wrott, I am most impressed with Mrs. Miliken and not just about the Apollo thing. I had a few teachers like that in high school, in particular my bio teacher Sister Helen Louise. Yeah, a nun. Sometimes the good stuff just shines through, ya know?

I'm two years older than you, nyah. And had ca. 435 more classmates.

We have a mishmosh of kitchen stuff, from the All-Clad set I got new at a serious discount to the favorite big cast-aluminum skillet that Joe got at a garage sale in his grad-school days nearly 40 years ago. It has neither lid nor handle and it's not quite flat on the bottom anymore but it's got that old-pot magic. It doesn't look seasoned on the inside but it acts that way.

Caine, I am grabbing that frybread recipe and am also infernally grateful. In return: I got into a chat awhile back with a kid who was running a Navajo taco joint outside Fresno, after tacos and dessert frybread. (Everyone: Navajo tacos are made with plate-size frybread, and not folded; more like Mexican tostadas.) I mentioned a Hungarian thing, arrgh I can't find the name, basically little frybreads on which you rub a garlic clove. (David, help??)

She said she was PO'd at her Hungarian grandfather who had failed to tell her about this, and was going home at closing time to have a serious talk. Now I wish I'd been at that wedding; imagine a Navajo-Hungarian potluck!

We own a set of really old cast-iron cookware too. It's somewhere in the storage unit where we stuffed all of Joe's mother's stuff after she died—in fact, that we had hauled from Little Rock where it had been in a similar unit since we'd moved her out here.

Also there is our rockingchair collection. We can barely fit ourselves and our books into this flat but somehow I can't bear to part with a rockingchair collection.

#414

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:25 AM

Ron, they are just called Indian Tacos here in Indian country. :) I haven't bothered with a taco in a tortilla since landing in ND.

#415

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:57 AM

I am most impressed with Mrs. Miliken and not just about the Apollo thing. I had a few teachers like that in high school, in particular my bio teacher Sister Helen Louise. Yeah, a nun. Sometimes the good stuff just shines through, ya know?

I'm two years older than you, nyah. And had ca. 435 more classmates.

[kill snark]
That is really something. Something that lasts. Something given to a youngster and lasts a long, long time. Aren't you glad? I know I am. The best part is the example that we are free to follow.

As for saddle pads, near as I can recall you take

One large serving spoon of starter for about every two saddle pads you intend to cook.
For each spoonful you add an egg, two pinches of baking soda and one of salt and just enough sugar to ensure even and tempting browning.
Mix well in a bowl. Let it rest a moment while you heat and grease the griddle.
Cook as all saddle pads are cooked, you must have done it before.
Return to the starter however much flour you think you took out and just enough water to mix the old and the new together.
Cover and repeat the next morning.

Thanks for the kind acknowlegment of Mrs. Miliken. I return gratitude to Sister Helen Louise. We have been well served by them, eh? It is good that we remember.

[reanimate snark]
For the diet zombies and those who count calories in anticipation of a low number, don't try this. Stick to sourdough bread. With Vegemite. I hear it has a healthy tang. A bite of which the old boy sang. He often was a sorry oaf but man, that dude could cook a loaf.

I found my class bewildering enough in its small size. That has, apparently, not made me respectful of larger classes. So I'm a small town guy. I'll still bet that my bread is the fastest rising around.

#416

Posted by: Crudely Wrott Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:19 AM

Next up on TCM, Dr. Sardonicus! As it is four fifteen in the morning, I think I'll go to sleep watching it.

Perchance to dream . . . and thus awake anew.

G'night.

#417

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:51 AM

Arrgh, I've stayed up all night reading comments. For the cast iron if it's new you have to clean it, that is scrub it but not with soap. When it's just clean, non-greasy iron, wipe it all over with vegetable oil and bake it gently in a warm oven, maybe 275 or 300 F. for half an hour to an hour. I'm relying on memory here, so check the details by looking for "how to season cast iron."

With old pieces you want to remove baked-on pieces of grease and maybe scrub them down to the metal and re-season.

After a pan has been seasoned, you should be able to wash it briefly with detergent without removing the seasoning. If you get bare iron patches, do it again.

#418

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:51 AM

So, I was reading Charlie's Diary, which currently has a very interesting post regarding his latest published work, "The Trade of Queens", and this snippet caught my eye (and brought Walton to mind):

If I was going to write extruded fantasy product, I'd have to write it from the point of view of the young lad growing up with poor but honest folks somewhere in middle earth who discovers that he's destined to grow up to be the Dark Lord, overthrow the established order, and start a revolution. Because? I'm a native of a nation that has a hereditary aristocracy and a monarchy, and it's a lot less romantic in real life than in fiction. As long as they're constitutionally reigned in and kept busy opening supermarkets and holding garden parties a monarchy isn't too toxic, but if you go back a century or two what you get is basically a hereditary dictatorship (complete with secret police) dressed up in fancy clothing. If you want a modern cognate, you need look no further than Kim Jong-Il.
#420

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 5:26 AM

Walton, to start with:

If the press are constantly concentrating upon trivia and sensationalism and ignoring and under-reporting the valuable role being played by the Royal Family every day throughout the country and across the world it is not surprising that the very full schedules of members of the royal family are not well-known and appreciated.

How much coverage is there in the press about visits to other countries made by the Queen and other members of royal family and about the benefits that there are to this country and to the country visited as a result? Nowadays they hardly get a mention.

Just have a look at the royal appointments schedules on the royal website. Those of the main members of the royal family show the huge number of appointments that they have. And of course these are not initiated by them, they do not get up in the morning and say “I think I'll visit a hospital today or open an exhibition”; of course not, there is a constant never-ending massive number of requests from people who would like members of the royal family to support their events knowing the value of a royal visit to all involved.

What is this value of which is spoken — is it 'Public Relations', where they represent the State?

Thoughts spring to mind: Is it something only Royals can do, or can other prominent people? What is the relative ROI?

#421

Posted by: Feynmaniac Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 5:41 AM

Walton, two questions:

Back when you described yourself as a "libtertarian monarchist" (or whatever it was) how did you internally justify that clear contradiction?

Why is the issue of the British monarchy so important to you? IIRC (apologies if I'm mistaken) you're not a big fan of 'nationalism'.

#422

Posted by: blf Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 5:45 AM

The Rabid Rat might have a bit of a problem, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/13/pope-abuse-case-munich-vatican

Pope is 'shocked' to hear of abuse case in Munich while he was archbishop
Catholic church investigates 170 allegations in Germany; justice minister cites Vatican 'wall of silence' set up by Benedict

[Pope Benedict XVI's] former archdiocese of Munich has acknowledged that, while he was in charge, it dealt with a suspected paedophile priest by transferring him to a different parish where he went on to commit sex offences against children. The revelation has drawn attention to Benedict's handling of abuse claims, both when archbishop and later as a prefect of the Vatican office dealing with such crimes, a position he held until becoming pope in 2005.

Yesterday, the head of the German Catholic bishop's conference, Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, revealed he was investigating more than 170 allegations of abuse in the church's institutions. The scandal broke in January when it was alleged that, over a period of 30 years, priests found to be abusing children had been redeployed to other parishes rather than dismissed.

[A]n American charity expressed disbelief. "We find it extraordinarily hard to believe that Ratzinger didn't reassign the predator, or know about the reassignment," said Barbara Blaine, of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.

The pope has also faced criticism for a letter he sent from the Vatican in 2001 advising all bishops that all cases of abuse were subject to pontifical secret and must be forwarded to his office. Germany's justice minister cited the document as evidence of a Vatican "wall of silence" around abuse cases.

#423

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 6:02 AM

Remove from heat and stir in cornstarch mixture. Watch for lumps!

If you mix the cornstarch with water first then there's no lumps. That doesn't mean dump the cornstarch into a little water and give a couple of half-hearted strokes with a fork. Pour the cornstarch slowly into as much cold liquid by volume as cornstarch and mix it with a wire whisk. If you make the mixture early and it sits for more than a couple of minutes the cornstarch will settle out. Mix it again before use.

If you use flour as a thickener then you have to be stirring as you slowly add the flour to the liquid. Lumpy gravy means the cook didn't take the time to mix the thickener slowly.

However if using flour it's best to make a roux. For the beginner use equal amounts (by volume) of flour and fat. Butter is the most commonly used form of fat. Other fats can be used but have a different flavor. Melt the butter over medium heat; slowly add the flour slowly to the butter, whisking constantly. Within 2 to 3 minutes the roux will have a consistency of a cake frosting. A white roux is done when the flour loses its "raw" smell and begins to develop a toasty aroma. Darker roux are cooked, stirring constantly, until the desired color. Burned roux has an extremely unpleasant flavor so keep stirring to avoid burning. If you're not adding liquid immediately remove the pan from the heat and transfer the roux to another container to cool.

#424

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 6:04 AM

Back when you described yourself as a "libtertarian monarchist" (or whatever it was) how did you internally justify that clear contradiction?

There is no contradiction. Firstly, don't make a category error here. Libertarianism is a political opinion about the scope of the state; it seeks to prescribe how much the state can interfere with individuals' autonomy. It doesn't say anything either way about how state officials should be selected, or about how the organs of the state should be constituted. The latter is simply a separate issue. Libertarianism is obviously compatible with democracy - and most libertarians are also democrats (though not all - look up Hans-Herman Hoppe, for instance) - but the one doesn't automatically imply the other. Don't get me wrong; being a "libertarian absolute monarchist" would be very silly, to the point of delusion. But it wouldn't necessarily be logically self-contradictory. Libertarianism, like socialism, is an opinion about the desirable size of the state, not about the desirable type or organisation of the state. The latter is a separate issue.

Secondly, in any case, many of the countries which we refer to as "constitutional monarchies" are not monarchies stricto sensu, in anything more than a symbolic sense. Rather, they are parliamentary democracies with a nominal head of state. There is little difference in practice between the functioning of a parliamentary constitutional monarchy, like Sweden, Denmark or the Netherlands, and the functioning of a parliamentary republic with a completely ceremonial President, like Germany, Ireland or Finland. The former simply choose to call their nominal head of state "King" or "Queen" instead of "President", and to select him or her by inheritance rather than another process. So if you understand that "monarchy" in this context really means "republic with a ceremonial hereditary head of state", you can see how it does not contradict libertarian principles in any substantive way.

I don't include all constitutional monarchies in this category: there are some, such as Jordan and Tonga, where the King is not an absolute ruler but nevertheless does wield substantial political power. But even these are not "monarchies" stricto sensu, in the sense of the "rule of one", since the King's power is limited by the constitution and by custom. Conversely, there are countries which are called "republics" but could be more accurately described as de facto monarchies, such as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

#425

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 6:12 AM

Why is the issue of the British monarchy so important to you? IIRC (apologies if I'm mistaken) you're not a big fan of 'nationalism'.

I dislike nationalism, in the sense that I hate the attitude that a person's rights, duties and life chances should be defined exclusively by the accident of his or her nationality of birth. In an ideal world, people would be free to move freely around the world and to change their nationality at will. People should not be viewed simply as the passive subjects of nation-states; ideally, they should be viewed more as customers, with the nation-state existing solely to serve the people who live for the time being within its boundaries. This is why I support open immigration, and why I oppose the discriminatory and barbaric treatment of refugees and asylum-seekers here in the UK. I also dislike economic nationalism; I don't see why I should care more about the livelihood of a British business or a British worker than that of a Chinese business or worker, and as such, I unequivocally support unrestricted global free trade and oppose protectionism. Anyone who wants to trade with anyone else, wherever they were born and wherever they are in the world, should be free to do so.

But the monarchy is simply nothing to do with these issues. Abolishing the monarchy would make absolutely zero difference to the amount of nationalist and xenophobic sentiment in Britain, to the strength of our immigration restrictions, to protectionism, or anything else. So I don't see your point. (Please don't trot out the old canard about "citizens versus subjects". We have been "British citizens" in law since 1981. In law, you are a Canadian citizen, not a Canadian "subject". There is no reason why a constitutional monarchy cannot be compatible with ideals of citizenship.)

#426

Posted by: windy Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 6:30 AM

a parliamentary republic with a completely ceremonial President, like Germany, Ireland or Finland.

This is incorrect, at least for now.

#427

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 6:36 AM

If I pointed out at the Intersection that I use the phrase:

"Well fuck me with a barge pole"

...regularly, but have no intention of actually doing that, would it be a useful point to make?

#428

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 6:39 AM

Very droll, MrFire, very droll.

#429

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 7:07 AM

Re: Frybread discussion.

I was at a forest fire in Warm Springs, Oregon. One day, a little kitchen trailer shows up outside the fire camp. Great smells eminate from said trailer. I wander out (I was stationed at the front gate anyway, so . . . . Frybread with either wild berries or Navajo Taco style. I chose the taco. The cook asked, "Hot, mild or anglo?"

I lived for five years in northern Arizona. I have exerienced 'hot.' Not a good mix when all we had were portapotties. I wimped out and ordered 'anglo.' On a scale of one (Taco Bell hot) to ten (red hot curry), the anglo was about a three which was exactly what I wanted.

There used to be a restaurant called the Red Feather in Tusayan just outside of Grand Canyon. They had fantastic Navajo Tacos. Gone now. Sad. Well, on that note, off to work.

#430

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 7:15 AM

Oh lord - now JJ Ramsay is trying to mansplain the concept of rape culture to stu over at the Twins' digs. I can't take it over there any more.

#431

Posted by: Matt Penfold Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 7:40 AM

Watching The Intersection is like watching those TV programs that feature spectacular crashes caught on film. You know it is not really very edifying, and you feel a bit grubby watching it, but it irresistible.

#432

Posted by: blf Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 7:48 AM

Frybread and Indian (or as I know them, Navajo) Tacos: Yum!

I can't recall having either for decades now, since my family moved from the vicinity of a Navajo reservation to the vicinity of the Mexican boarder, but the discussion has brought up memories of both from when I was a small child. Now I'm wondering if I can make some without setting the lair, my beard, or something else embarrassing and expensive on fire…

#433

Posted by: thrawn369 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 7:50 AM

I can't believe that nobody's posted The Chaser's parody of the ad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl3ViQln-J0

#434

Posted by: SteveV Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 7:53 AM

blf #422

' The pope has also faced criticism for a letter he sent from the Vatican in 2001 advising all bishops that all cases of abuse were subject to pontifical secret and must be forwarded to his office. Germany's justice minister cited the document as evidence of a Vatican "wall of silence" around abuse cases. '

Sounds like
'Perverting the Course of Justice'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverting_the_course_of_justice

#435

Posted by: Feynmaniac Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 8:07 AM

Walton,

Libertarianism, like socialism, is an opinion about the desirable size of the state, not about the desirable type or organisation of the state.

It just seems to be me that the Queen is the very symbol of the state. You literally have take an oath of allegiance to her to be a citizen. Sure it's just symbolic, but you'd think a person who uses the term 'statist' as an insult wouldn't be thrilled about the idea of an (even symbolic) head of state.

Not that it really matters since you don't consider yourself a libertarian anymore. I was just curious.

People should not be viewed simply as the passive subjects of nation-states; ideally, they should be viewed more as customers

I agree people shouldn't be passive, but I don't think viewing them as customers is the right way to go about it. Customers don't really have much direct say on how a businesses works. Sure businesses care about whether their customers are satisfied, but even dictators can't completely ignore the mood the population.

But the monarchy is simply nothing to do with these issues. Abolishing the monarchy would make absolutely zero difference to the amount of nationalist and xenophobic sentiment in Britain

Well, let me try to use an example. In the US a lot of Fox News shows have the US flag featured to ridiculous levels. While they do this they spout on about anti-immigration policies (aka, fuck the Mexicans) and American exceptionalism. Now not everyone in the US views the flag like that and the people at Fox would be doing the same without it. However, don't you think even symbols could help foster nationalism?

In law, you are a Canadian citizen, not a Canadian "subject"

Well, I'm also an American citizen so maybe that's what driving my anti-monarchism, :P.

#436

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 8:09 AM

Oh man. I've only read till comment 284 yet. :-o

I'll post the current poll results anyway, before they get out of date:

Do you believe the references to God on U.S. currency and the Pledge of Allegiance are appropriate?

Yes. 89%
No. 10%
Not sure. 1%

Also, I'm having breakfast instead of lunch now. :-) I bought bread... and that with butter and honey is a delight.

While I am at it, this news item (in German) says that the next issue of Science Signaling will have a paper on a mutation that both makes it impossible to feel anticipatory joy at the thought of good food and increases the risk of diabetes – basically, appetite is insulin.

Now to catch up and cut the next slice of bread off...

#437

Posted by: Feynmaniac Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 8:15 AM

Oh, what a surprise!

Don Kwokixote de la Stuyvesant joined on the Pharyngula-bashing at The Intersection.

#438

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 8:18 AM

Don Kwokixote de la Stuyvesant

LMFAO

Now that name is sticking

#439

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 8:42 AM

Walton

Abolishing the monarchy would make absolutely zero difference to the amount of nationalist and xenophobic sentiment in Britain, to the strength of our immigration restrictions, to protectionism, or anything else.
(my italics)


Really? For a start, it would also mean getting rid of the whole "nobility". All those worthless, parasitic Dukes, Earls, Lords etc.
And it would mean no state payments (the Civil List) for all the members of the head of state's family members, and various relatives. How do you justify those payments?

PS - side topic, on what you probably think is an "unacceptable" subject :) -
Do you know that if the Queen visits, and is likely to need to evacuate her bowels, the hosts have to build a special, sand-filled, toilet? (So that no one can hear the "plop"!) Maybe things have changed, but this was certainly the case in the 70's, when I was told this by the manager of the Royal Shakespeare Company. He was quite annoyed, because after all the effort and inconvenience (lol) to the RSC, she didn't even use it.
I also have a good story, told to me by someone who claimed to have witnessed it, and who I trusted, about an orgy on the Isle of Wight, in which "Prince" Philip was MC, wearing only an animal skin. But I'll save that for another time :) I'm sure if that had been done by a President, the forelock-tugging British press would have mentioned it. Instead all we ever get are vague hints about his philandering.

Sorry to hit and run, but I must go, got to go and see my football team lose.

#440

Posted by: Paul W., OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:07 AM

"Well fuck me with a barge pole"

When exasperated with my own ineptitude or feeling unfairly put upon, I'm prone to saying "Aaagh! FUCK ME WITH A FORK!"

Evidently, by Intersection standards, I am one sick, self-hating, sexually violent Pharyngulista.

This has nothing at all to do with irony or hyperbole or a penchant for alliteration---oh god no, not alliteration!---as I'd always thought. It's all about the pointy bits of flatware and their potential for mutilating my nether regions. I'm evidently obsessed with that.

I probably won't be posting here for at least a while; I must seek intensive psychiatric help immediately.

#441

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:09 AM

In preparation to celebrate Sr. Patrick's Day*, I watched The Wind that Shakes the Barley last night. Sad film.

*IMO, St. Patrick was the worst thing that ever happened to Ireland.

#442

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:32 AM

Feynmaniac,

It just seems to be me that the Queen is the very symbol of the state. You literally have take an oath of allegiance to her to be a citizen.

Only to become a naturalized citizen, having been born with a different nationality; similar loyalty oaths, to the nation or the constitution or something else, are required in the naturalization process in a lot of countries. It's not something I'm particularly keen on, but it isn't by any means a unique feature of monarchy.

And yes, the Queen is the "symbol of the state". But those libertarians who are not anarchocapitalists are willing to acknowledge that a state of some sort should exist. If the existence of a state is desirable - which you and I would presumably agree that it is - then there's no inherent harm in it having symbols. Most countries have a flag, a coat of arms, an anthem and so on, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong about this. "Statism" becomes an issue when the state steps beyond the scope of the powers which it should exercise; you and I would probably disagree as to how much the state should intervene in the economy, but we would agree that the existence of the state per se is not inherently wrong - and if we agree that, then I don't see what the harm is in having some sort of symbol.

Well, let me try to use an example. In the US a lot of Fox News shows have the US flag featured to ridiculous levels. While they do this they spout on about anti-immigration policies (aka, fuck the Mexicans) and American exceptionalism. Now not everyone in the US views the flag like that and the people at Fox would be doing the same without it. However, don't you think even symbols could help foster nationalism?

Yes, symbols can become focal points for nationalism - but I don't think the elimination of those symbols would do anything to reduce nationalism. Sadly, the tribal instinct - dividing the world along arbitrary lines into "us" and "them" - is very deeply ingrained in humanity. It manifests itself in many fields of human activity, from the trivial (sports fandom, college rivalries and so on) to the grave (ethnic or religious sectarian violence, ultra-nationalism). It will not go away; it will always simply find a different outlet.

Ring Tailed Lemurian,

Really? For a start, it would also mean getting rid of the whole "nobility". All those worthless, parasitic Dukes, Earls, Lords etc.

What do you mean by "getting rid" of the nobility? Since 1997, most hereditary peers no longer have the right to sit in the House of Lords (and the few remaining are likely to be removed in the next few years). They have no other substantial legal privileges today, and play no role in the workings of the state. They're able to call themselves by an archaic title (though many choose not to bother, especially in their professional lives), but that's it. Some (though certainly not all) aristocratic families are wealthy, and some own estates (though an increasing number have sold their family estates, as it's too expensive to maintain), but I don't see how this makes them any more "parasitic" than any other property-owner.

(Don't confuse the hereditary peers with life peers, who are appointed for life to sit in the House of Lords, and are usually either retired politicians or notable public figures. They're comparable to Canadian Senators, or the equivalent in other countries which have an appointed upper house. Life peerages are not inherited.)

So I just don't know what you mean by "getting rid" of the nobility. If you're simply referring to removing the remaining hereditary peers from the House of Lords, then I can reassure you that this is likely to happen in the next few years anyway.

And it would mean no state payments (the Civil List) for all the members of the head of state's family members, and various relatives. How do you justify those payments?

I explained this on the previous thread. Firstly, some, but not all, members of the Royal Family receive payments from the Civil List. Such payments are only received by those who actually perform public duties. The more distant Royals, like Prince Michael of Kent, do not receive any Civil List money and must support themselves privately.

In any case, as I explained, although Civil List payments come from the public treasury, the Queen also pays the revenues from the Crown Estate and the Duchy of Lancaster (the lands and holdings associated with the Crown) into the treasury, which offsets the cost. So the Queen and Royal Family actually cause very little, if any, net cost to the taxpayers (and that's not even factoring in the boost to the economy from tourism).

Do you know that if the Queen visits, and is likely to need to evacuate her bowels, the hosts have to build a special, sand-filled, toilet? (So that no one can hear the "plop"!)

I'm not even going to respond to this vile calumny. Ladies don't do such things, and especially not the Queen. :-)

#443

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:34 AM

Paul,

Despite the qu*ckings of the Kw*k, I would say things actually appear to be quieting down over at the Intersucktion train wreck thread, so above all we don't need any new and ambiguous cutlery-laden phrases that could be manipulated by the warped minds over there. They've already shown how they can twist that particular piece of cutlery to go far beyond the sickest interpretation of the initial phrase, so they really don't need to apply themselves to the blunter culinary instruments.

(Unless, of course, we want to see 250+ posts on spoon metaphors, and what violence is inherent in misuse of the ladle. Call the waaambulance!)

ye Pope Maledicte DCLXVI

#444

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:34 AM

Not that it really matters since you don't consider yourself a libertarian anymore. I was just curious.

Hmm. I still intermittently call myself a libertarian, but it all depends what you mean by "libertarian". I'm certainly much less doctrinaire than I used to be.

#445

Posted by: thrawn369 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:46 AM

Maybe you guys will find this interesting. It's Dawkins on an Australian panel show with Australian Senator Stephen Fielding, a creationist who doesn't want to say if he's young earth or old earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtVZ23GfmDo

#446

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 9:58 AM

Noticed and covered in the previous version of this rather long thread, but thanks for reminding us of the stupidity of the Family First F*ckwit from Victoria. (But not quite stupid enough to admit to being a creationist on national television; instead he flapped around hopelessly in search of a better cliché)

#447

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:02 AM

D'oh, insert "young earth" in the parentheses...

#448

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:06 AM

I've been known to eat a whole loaf of (German) bread (or several bags of chips, or 5kg of nectarines) in a day.

:-o

Except for the nectarines, I want to be able to do that.

Well, if I ate nothing but that kg loaf the whole day, that could be feasible... except I put so much butter on it...

Apropos of nothing, I liked this recent comment by Owlmirror:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/sins_of_omission.php#comment-2345489

As if I had written it, only better.

I see that's another thread I need to catch up with one day.

Yes, but do you think the Texas State Board of Education know that? They probably think "negative externalities" are when you paint the outside of your house an ugly colour, and a "liquidity trap" is one of those barrels for catching rainwater that runs off the roof. :-)

:-D

whine like a little bitch. Shows that she buys into the idea that women, in general, are weak and ineffective.

I guess that was deliberate – she wanted to shatter what she thought was SC's patriarchal self-image and shame "him" into... something. A "you are what you despise the most" strategy.

But yeah, she's weird, and not just because of the shoe fetish. (My feet, and my eyes, hurt when I just look at... urgh.)

Yeah... I knew I'd subconsciously stolen the "Biscuit-Barrel" part from somewhere.

You know, I really didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Pilty showed up in the vegemite thread.

WTF. I mean, I knew it's a religious war, but... but...

As the presidential election loomed in 1800, the Federalist focus on Jefferson grew more urgent. Federalists, and especially Federalist clergymen, were appalled by the idea that a self-professed deist might become president of the United States....To prevent such a calamity, the Ferderalist press launched an unprecedented campaign of personal vilification against Jefferson...

Always reluctant to make public declarations about his beliefs, Jefferson refused to respond to Federalist charges of atheism and infidelity. His Republican supporters were not so complacent, and as they rushed into print to defend him, the issue of Jefferson's infidelity quickly came to dominate the campaign of 1800.

Not really suprising in hindsight, but I had no idea whatsoever...

Last fall the principal of my kids' school sent home some absurd flyer about avoiding/treating H1N1 via megadoses of vitamins and the use of Neti pots.

! I think I might have been tempted to wander around in a biohazard suit during flu season.

I think I might have been tempted to get violent on that principal. And then on everyone whose fault it is that he got that job.

You kids get off my LAN!

:-D :-D :-D

Give us this day
our daily frybread
and indulge us our gluttony
as we indulge those who are hungry before us

For thine is the butter
and the honey
and the cinnamon forever and ever!

This is... touching.

Webcomic win.

So true... so true...

infernally grateful.

:-D

I mentioned a Hungarian thing, arrgh I can't find the name, basically little frybreads on which you rub a garlic clove. (David, help??)

When I type "Frybread" in Wikipedia, it says "see also: lángos". But a lángos is the size of a very big plate the way I know it from Viennese fast food. It does contain plenty of garlic, though.

Now I wish I'd been at that wedding; imagine a Navajo-Hungarian potluck!

...sounds... interesting... :-9

People should not be viewed simply as the passive subjects of nation-states; ideally, they should be viewed more as customers

Try "shareholders".

I chose the taco. The cook asked, "Hot, mild or anglo?"

X-D

Oh lord - now JJ Ramsay is trying to mansplain the concept of rape culture to stu over at the Twins' digs.

ROTFL! I'm so not going to check that out firsthand. X-D

#449

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:07 AM

ideally, they should be viewed more as customers
fuck no! the absolutely last thing I'd want to see is this sort of adversarial relationship between state and citizenry. :-/
#450

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:12 AM

Try "shareholders".
ah, yes. If we absolutely must use unfortunate capitalist metaphors for the relationship of state and citizenry, then "shareholders" is better. ideally, the whole thing would be run like a giant co-op ;-)
#451

Posted by: phi1ip Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:13 AM

You know, I really didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...


...


*crickets*

#452

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:18 AM

Don Kwokixote de la Stuyvesant

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

an orgy on the Isle of Wight

Tssssss. So many impressive fossils on the Isle of Wight (a href="http://www.isleofwight.com/dinosaurfarmmuseum/">been there), and all those gentlemen can think of is an orgy... <headshake>

Anyway. I finished breakfast (at 4 pm or so) and need to visit the lab to see if a phylogenetic analysis is finished or got stuck because it ran out of RAM. See you later.

#453

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:20 AM

Here's a delightful story: Mormon politician, a Republican and Family Values guy, is battling negative publicity over time spent in a hot tub with a 15-year-old girl.

Cheryl Maher, the New Hampshire woman who says she had an affair with Layton Rep. Kevin Garn in 1985 and was paid $150,000 to keep her secret, says Garn is lying about a naked hot tub encounter between them when she was 15 and he was 30.
     Garn told reporters last night, "I can unequivocally tell you there was no physical contact, there was no touching, there was no intercourse, there was none of those things. It simply did not occur. ...I'm not trying to downplay what did occur but I want to make it very plain."
     Maher says he's lying, but is hesitant to give her version of events. "Let's just say this. He really loves to massage," Maher told City Weekly when asked for details of the contact in the hot tub. Maher, though, talks less about how that particular encounter traumatized her and more about the emotional relationship she had with Garn. "I was in love with him," she said. ...
     She's also angry at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who she accuses of being notified of the abuse on multiple occasions and not offering her adequate services or support, even as Garn's position in the church--from her perspective--was unaffected.
     Garn, Maher says, was her fourth grade sunday school teacher, though their affair wouldn't begin for several years after that.
     "In the church, people feel they can trust everybody," said Maher, who was excommunicated a few years ago for an extra-marital affair. "You're supposed to be safe with the priesthood holder, or whoever you're with. And I think my Mom and Dad felt that way. 'He's taking her out to lunch. Oh, he's taken her shopping....
What's interesting about this whole affair is the response from fellow mormon politicians, who saying that such immoral behavior is rare in Utah. Bwahhahah.
#454

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:26 AM

One of the real-world (as opposed to mormon fantasy world) comments about the mormon reaction to Representative Kevin Garn's hob knobbing with 15-year-old girls:

The guy made a terrible mistake 25 years ago and it's haunting him now. The big difference is rather than being an award-winning, internationally acclaimed film director, he's a Mormon, Republican legislator, so he won't be placed under house arrest or barred from traveling out of the country or have to fight off women's activist groups who want his head on a stick, still.
     Instead, Garn did the announcement when it looked like the story would break with him or without him.
     And to see his colleagues rise to their feet and applaud him was breathtakingly awkward. I couldn't tell if they were applauding his hot tubbing exploits with a naked 15 year-old or that he made the announcement the night the session ended and they were just glad to get it over. You know, relieved that it wasn't one of them, this time, anyway.
Video of the confession, with applauding cohorts.
#455

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:27 AM

Still hungry, but not hungry enough to make the effort of preparing the next slice. :-) I'll save the hunger for dinner/supper.

fuck no! the absolutely last thing I'd want to see is this sort of adversarial relationship between state and citizenry. :-/

Or university and students. The right-right coalition government of Austria tried to sell that as an improvement in 2002. They have been suspected of wanting to limit the number of thinking people in the country, and while that's a somewhat extraordinary claim, I can't really find any evidence against it. Anyway, Austria has got rid of half of that government now, and one or two extremes of the university reform have been stopped... :-|

ideally, the whole thing would be run like a giant co-op ;-)

:-)

Actually... SC, could you explain anarchism in a screen or two, or link to such an explanation? To me, anarchism seems somewhat absurd, but I don't actually know much about it.

...

*crickets*

In case that's not clear, I was referring to the end of the video, which shows the beginning of the next sketch, which iiiiis...

...unexpected. :-)

#456

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:29 AM

Whoops, I gave the wrong link for the video of the confession by Kevin Garn. Here's the correct link:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/politician-admits-hot-tub-incident-teen-10087990

#457

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:29 AM

IMO, St. Patrick was the worst thing that ever happened to Ireland.

He was, after all, English.

#458

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:30 AM

I still intermittently call myself a libertarian, but it all depends what you mean by "libertarian".

Me too some times.

*ducks*

I think a lot of that has to do with growing up in Texas though.

It's ok. I don't call myself a libertarian anymore. In reality I'm more like a socially liberal centrist. It's just that, well, here that somehow means screaming liberal.

#459

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:32 AM

That "any more" was meant to be followed with a "very often" actually. I thought it but didn't type it.

Forgive me. I just did 45 minutes of dance practice which sounds pathetic but I'm proud of myself right now because I actually feel ok.

Off to a shower.

#460

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:51 AM

Forgive me. I just did 45 minutes of dance practice which sounds pathetic but I'm proud of myself right now because I actually feel ok.

I know the feeling. I ran 3.5km this morning and felt much better.

Now I just have to learn all about the torts of negligence and private nuisance (which are just as fascinating as they sound) in preparation for a class on Monday. :-(

#461

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 10:56 AM

The wife of Kevin Garn, Tanya, played a big role in convincing Cheryl (the girl Garn finagled into the hot tub) to keep the affair secret. Here are some excerpts from one of Tanya's emails, written in 2003:

Kevin and I have been praying for guidance and direction from our Heavenly Father. We have had a very sweet experience in which it was manifested to us that the pain we feel right now in Cheryl's acquiring an attorney is a means to help us know her continued pain and the part that we play in that pain. We felt impressed to seek forgiveness from our Father and Cheryl for any deflection she felt in our responsibiliy in her pain. (D & C 101:8 "In the day of their peace, they esteemed lightly counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.")...
     We would both like to resolve all of this in the Lord's way as we know that is the path to true healing on both sides. We have discovered that any worldly path to try and take away pain is ultimately damaging....We hope that you believe our sincerity in wanting Cheryl to heal and extend an invitation to unitedly pray and work for a healthy resolution and restitution. We are certain that we can resolve this to her satisfaction without legal counsel... Love, Tanya
     P.S. Will you please extend to Cheryl my personal gratitude for her and her influence in our lives. As difficult as this is for her and for us, I know that she is an instrument in God's hands to remind us of our troubles and to force us to our knees and be united as a couple as we seek our Heavenly Father's help. (D & C 101:8)
Leaves one with no doubt as to how mormons operate, how they play the Heavenly Father card, and how they are the center of the universe.
#463

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:00 AM

We would both like to resolve all of this in the Lord's way as we know that is the path to true healing on both sides. We have discovered that any worldly path to try and take away pain is ultimately damaging....We hope that you believe our sincerity in wanting Cheryl to heal and extend an invitation to unitedly pray and work for a healthy resolution and restitution. We are certain that we can resolve this to her satisfaction without legal counsel...
shorter Mormon: please don't sue us! And if you do sue us, you're clearly not as godly as we are!

*barf*

#464

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:07 AM

shorter Mormon: please don't sue us! And if you do sue us, you're clearly not as godly as we are!
Eggggsactly, Jadehawk! They like to think they're being subtle, but the religious manipulation is blatant.

Kevin Garn seeks forgiveness, and freedom from having to pay any more money to his victim.

#465

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:12 AM

It's all about the pointy bits of flatware and their potential for mutilating my nether regions.

Have you considered the additional damage that might be wrought with some sort of a sideways motion?
Consult Ramsey for details.

IMO, St. Patrick was the worst thing that ever happened to Ireland.

No shit, AE. If only they had a few snakes around, they might not be so obsessed with famines and Protestants and shit.

And as the loving father of a soon-to-turn-14 daughter, I can state confidently that no 30-yo Sunday-school teacher is getting close enough to even make eye contact, if I can help it.

#466

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:13 AM

The guy made a terrible mistake 25 years ago and it's haunting him now. The big difference is rather than being an award-winning, internationally acclaimed film director, he's a Mormon, Republican legislator, so he won't be placed under house arrest or barred from traveling out of the country or have to fight off women's activist groups who want his head on a stick, still.
hmm... I don't know if that's an entirely fair comparison. Polanski actually did rape the girl (as in: she said no, but he did it anyway); in this case though, lacking more information, it seems more like an affair with a minor, which has its own issues and is of course also illegal... but I don't think that's quite the same thing, is it?
#467

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:20 AM

I don't think that's quite the same thing, is it?

Assuming we know the relevant facts in either case (a false assumption, for me at least), no, they're not quite the same thing, to me.
To the Law, they are the same, by statute.
To the Mormon God it probably makes no never mind. But that's neither here nor there.

#468

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:22 AM

I agree with Jadehawk that the comparison to Polanski is apples to oranges. Not right. However, if you read Cheryl's take on the affair, and not just Kevin Garn's account, you can see that he manipulated her. The fact that she was 15, confused as to what was going on, thought she was in love, and that the upstanding mormon stopped and bought liquor before he proceeded to the hot tub ... well, it's not a single bad moment in this mormon dude's life. It was a plan, and he carried it out over several months. Garn was the girl's boss at work as well.

Since I'm not the victim in this story, I can be most offended by the religious arm-twisting, which just gives me the willies. The religious bullying brings with it a strong stink of True Evil.

And the Molly Mormon Wife, Tanya, is a caricature of other TBM mormon women I know all too well. Fucking sad. And to some degree, one has to feel sorry for a woman that brainwashed.

#469

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:24 AM

Do you know that if the Queen visits, and is likely to need to evacuate her bowels, the hosts have to build a special, sand-filled, toilet? (So that no one can hear the "plop"!)

I'm not even going to respond to this vile calumny. Ladies don't do such things, and especially not the Queen. :-)

OK, I'm not going to say much about the whole monarchy thing, because it's simply ridiculous. But since this isn't the first time I've heard Walton say something of the sort, and because it relates to the royalty business, I feel a need to respond. This sort of remark (even with the smily) - and manner of thinking in general - bothers me immensely. Listen, women are human beings. We are, like men, animals, with all that goes along with this. To deny us this is to deny us our animality, which is fundamental to our humanity. It isn't respectful. It's disrespectful and confining.

There's something very similar with royalty. Even as an anarchist (perhaps more so as an anarchist?), I can sympathize with hereditary royals. People tend to focus on the privileges and wealth that go with the condition, but the other side is that people who are held to be living embodiments of something simply due to the circumstances of their birth are confined to certain roles, unable to develop and express their full humanity. Even in situations in which they can opt out (though never really fully), there is very strong pressure not to. Just as it is unjust to tell poor people that they should know their place, it is wrong to insist to these people that this is who they are, and to put them in public positions toward which many are hostile, merely because of the family they were born into. It's wrong to do to them.

More about monarchy later. I think Walton resembles Noah Webster - also featured in the book I just finished - in this conservative belief that societies need, or do best with, some sort of formal "moral center." Can lead to some very bad things.

Also, I'll get back to David shortly with some references.

#471

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:28 AM

oh, I know legally it's the same thing, and I agree that he should suffer the same consequence as others for breaking the law; I'm just expressing ambivalent feelings towards statutory rape laws and their execution in general (especially when you consider that boyfriends have been thrown in jail for having sex with their marginally younger girlfriends, while this creep will go free).

I find the authority issue more troubling than the age issue: he was her boss, her former Sunday School teacher, and a "respected" member of her religion... and he abused that authority towards her. Would have been still just as wrong if she had been 18.

#472

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:31 AM

I bought bread... and that with butter and honey is a delight.
Ohhhh...that sounded so good I had to stop reading and go get a slice for myself. Inferior American bread, of course, but the results are passable.
I think I might have been tempted to get violent on that principal. And then on everyone whose fault it is that he got that job.
Oh, he heard from me all right. His defense was that a) he had received the info from another principal in the area and had assumed it was 'vetted'; b) we were experiencing H1N1 vaccine rationing at the time and c) he though the advice on the flyer sounded "practical". As I was in the minority of parents who could identify the info as pseudoscience (here is a copy if anyone is interested), and so many parents were hedging on getting the H1N1 vaccine anyway, there wasn't much more to do but continue what I had been doing all Fall--talk to other parents and answer their questions about vaccine safety and H1N1 risks. I must have been waylaid in the school parking lot 20 times by various parents who know I am a biologist and wanted some feedback on all of the (mis) information that was floating around. The majority of these parents stopped me later to let me know they'd stood in line to get the vaccine, so hopefully I was able to mitigate whatever damage the flyer might have done in some way.

Sadly, though, I didn't convert a single one of them to atheism, and I'm ashamed to recall how many opportunities to deliver our spittle-flecked manifesto in shrill tones I've squandered whenever a layperson asked me about science. I'll try to stay on message next time, gang. Sorry!

just did 45 minutes of dance practice which sounds pathetic but I'm proud of myself right now because I actually feel ok.
I know the feeling. I ran 3.5km this morning and felt much better.
Woohooo! It's going to be a good day :)


Have you considered the additional damage that might be wrought with some sort of a sideways motion? Consult Ramsey for details.

*hearty cackle*

And as the loving father of a soon-to-turn-14 daughter, I can state confidently that no 30-yo Sunday-school teacher is getting close enough to even make eye contact, if I can help it.
No Sunday school teachers of any age or gender are getting anywhere near either of my kids without supervision. Even if you take the (not inconsiderable) sex abuse concerns out of the equation, there are numerous other ways in which they could inflict damage.
#473

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:32 AM

Also, I'll get back to David shortly with some references.
#474

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:33 AM

there's no inherent harm in it having symbols. Most countries have a flag, a coat of arms, an anthem and so on, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong about this.

I think I've just explained it in enough detail, but just for emphasis: a human being is not a flag.

#475

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:35 AM

But since this isn't the first time I've heard Walton say something of the sort, and because it relates to the royalty business, I feel a need to respond. This sort of remark (even with the smily) - and manner of thinking in general - bothers me immensely. Listen, women are human beings. We are, like men, animals, with all that goes along with this. To deny us this is to deny us our animality, which is fundamental to our humanity. It isn't respectful. It's disrespectful and confining.

SC, I apologise. I was joking; it was in no way meant to be a serious comment, nor does it reflect my actual opinion. And I do see your point. I will refrain from making such remarks in future.

Even as an anarchist (perhaps more so as an anarchist?), I can sympathize with hereditary royals. People tend to focus on the privileges and wealth that go with the condition, but the other side is that people who are held to be living embodiments of something simply due to the circumstances of their birth are confined to certain roles, unable to develop and express their full humanity. Even in situations in which they can opt out (though never really fully), there is very strong pressure not to. Just as it is unjust to tell poor people that they should know their place, it is wrong to insist to these people that this is who they are, and to put them in public positions toward which many are hostile, merely because of the family they were born into. It's wrong to do to them.

I see your point. But I don't think this is solely a feature of monarchy or formal hereditary rule. The same kind of social expectations, and unjustified hostility, often attach to those who are scions of celebrity families, for example, or children of world leaders, or otherwise in the public eye because of the circumstances of their birth. Their personal lives are scrutinised constantly by the gutter media simply because of who they are, and they are victimised and attacked if they don't live up to (often arbitrary and hypocritical) "standards" of behaviour. So I agree with you that this is unfair - and I certainly wouldn't exchange my background for that kind of life in the public eye, even one which carried great material privilege - but I don't think it's a feature of hereditary monarchy in itself.

I think Walton resembles Noah Webster - also featured in the book I just finished - in this conservative belief that societies need, or do best with, some sort of formal "moral center." Can lead to some very bad things.

No, I don't hold that view at all; I don't know where you're getting this idea. I don't see the British monarchy as anything to do with "morality" or a "moral centre". It's just a traditional institution that does no harm and (in some ways) quite a lot of good, and that there's no obvious reason to abolish.

#476

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:35 AM

well holy fuck, a reverse blockquote fail. i've no idea how that happened :-/

let's try again:

Also, I'll get back to David shortly with some references.
Oh fuck! And i still haven't gotten through your last reference-dump! You're trying to kill me!!!! *fake whinge*
#477

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:37 AM

In the Kevin-Garn-manipulates-Cheryl story, there's another twist. Mormon-owned news sources knew about the incident and didn't report it at the time:

Utah House Majority Leader Kevin Garn is not the only one taking lumps for hot-tubbing in the nude with a 15-year-old and later paying her hush money. The Deseret News is, too — for knowing about the incident eight years ago and not reporting it.
     "It was a bad decision not to report it," said Kelly McBride, ethics group leader at the Poynter Institute, a journalism training organization.
     "You essentially have someone who has presented one face to the public and it has been revealed that may not be true and accurate. And most likely you guys (the Deseret News) helped him present his narrative to the public. For that reason alone, you have an obligation to correct the record," she said in a telephone interview.
     That was typical of many comments on web sites and from some readers. But top Deseret News editors say they believe they made the right choice back in 2002, and they still defend it.
     Former Deseret News reporter Jerry Spangler said the episode began in 2002 when he wrote a profile of Garn and his congressional race just before the Republican primary election. He said Cheryl Maher called him to say "there is a side of him you don't know about," and told him about the nude hot-tubbing.

Moreover, Cheryl reports that she told other priesthood leaders, including a Bishop, about the affair and that none of them referred her to counseling, called law enforcement, or even inquired as to whether or not she was okay.

The news blackout sounds very familiar to me. Last fall I attended a conference for writers and one of the invited speakers was from the journalism department at BYU. He noted that they use "case studies" to teach ethics in their journalism classes. The example he gave was revealing. He wanted students to discuss the value of not reporting a police raid on a house of ill repute when several good men were rounded up and arrested right before the Christmas holiday. Should one ruin these men's reputations over a single incident? Or should some restraint be exercised?

#478

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:38 AM

Addendum: SC, did you receive my email the other day?

#479

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:41 AM

The same kind of social expectations, and unjustified hostility, often attach to those who are scions of celebrity families, for example, or children of world leaders, or otherwise in the public eye because of the circumstances of their birth.
that's not even remotely comparable. The "expectations" put upon a Paris Hilton do not even remotely resemble the expectations put upon a Prince William.
#480

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:44 AM

Personally, I think Walton just has a sort of aesthetic turn. He seems to like the aesthetic of having a monarchy.

#481

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmjWLFpCTTvui1bJ0OF0BdSYDTlR8kdkRY Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:45 AM

Ok, so here's the Queen in all her animality and humanity.

-kuckucksblume

#482

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:49 AM

Personally, I think Walton just has a sort of aesthetic turn. He seems to like the aesthetic of having a monarchy.
possibly true... but I find the display and maintenance of restrictive native cultural traits for the sole purpose of selling "authenticity" to tourists distasteful, and unfair to those forced to play these roles for the gaping crowds.
#483

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:50 AM

I see your point. But I don't think this is solely a feature of monarchy or formal hereditary rule. The same kind of social expectations, and unjustified hostility, often attach to those who are scions of celebrity families, for example, or children of world leaders, or otherwise in the public eye because of the circumstances of their birth.

There is a difference, it should be noted. First, a quantitative difference. Second, actions can be taken to minimize this in those circumstances. In the case of royalty, the confining expectations (and roots of hostility) are intrinsic to the institution.

Their personal lives are scrutinised constantly by the gutter media simply because of who they are, and they are victimised and attacked if they don't live up to (often arbitrary and hypocritical) "standards" of behaviour.

In the case of monarchs, the roles are built into the (note: hereditary) institution itself.

So I agree with you that this is unfair - and I certainly wouldn't exchange my background for that kind of life in the public eye, even one which carried great material privilege - but I don't think it's a feature of hereditary monarchy in itself.

It is a fundamental feature of hereditary monarchy in itself, though. That we can find elements of it in other contexts doesn't diminish this fact. So if you agree that it's unfair even in these lesser examples and wouldn't yourself want to be in that position, by what right do you support putting others in it?

No, I don't hold that view at all; I don't know where you're getting this idea. I don't see the British monarchy as anything to do with "morality" or a "moral centre".

We'll see...

It's just a traditional institution that does no harm and (in some ways) quite a lot of good, and that there's no obvious reason to abolish.

I've just presented one, and you agreed with it.

#484

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:51 AM

Lynna, what a disgusting story. I've just caught up on all the sources you linked to and bleeeeahhhhchhchcchchch. Being victimized that way to begin with is appalling enough, but to have the entire community fail to provide support or protection (except, apparently for the perpetrator) in the aftermath is scarcely comprehensible. And she's the one excommunicated for an extramarital affair? *snort*.

When I take a minute to really ponder how many millions of people on this planet are living their lives within a religious system that tells them this kind of thing is OK, it rocks me to my core.

#485

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:53 AM

The mormons plan to make Salt Lake City more mormon. But I think they might be tempting the earthquake god with some of their recent plans.

I've been tracking the LDS Church's acquisition of land in the Salt Lake Area, and their massive building projects. They're certainly spending a lot of money in the area, I'll give them that.
LDS Church & SLC Development


Here, eight miles from the urban capital, lie 19,000 acres of brush, streams and nearly forgotten landfills.
     “Nearly” is the operative word. Plans are afoot to get a long-awaited master plan in gear for a proposed settlement that would permanently change the face of this urban capital.
     Most assuredly, it would change the politics, too.
     What is now home mostly to birds, mosquitoes and deer flies would eventually house up to 70,000 people in “a variety of neighborhoods with a range of housing types for a diverse population … minutes from downtown and the airport,” according to a recent update of the 2009 draft of the Northwest Quadrant Master Plan....
     e Northwest Quadrant sits on a floodplain dotted by aging landfills susceptible to earthquake liquefaction.

“I like to think it’s better than Daybreak,” says Salt Lake City Councilman Carlton Christensen. “This is an opportunity to develop a community that really espouses some of the core values we espouse in this city, and if it can’t, shame on us.”
     The values Christensen talks about are things like sustainability, air quality and walkability. There are also values—albeit unspoken—of Utah’s conservative LDS majority that come into play.
     Political Hay: “People don’t like to talk about it much,” says former Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson, never one to shy away from controversy. “This could alter the political makeup of this community, and we could end up being another Sandy.”... Sandy, Utah, for those that may not recognize it, is often featured in HBO's "Big Love" program, and it's featured not just as a conservative mormon town, but as the home of barely hidden polygamist families. And, yes, there are still polygamist families living in little clumps all over Utah. Mainstream mormons give lip service to violently anti-polygamist dogma, but in practice they mostly ignore the polygamists. They do want to build suburbs that will be almost 100% mormon. Stepford Wives, anyone.

The master plan doesn’t exactly mention social engineering as a goal, and the area’s largest landowner—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—is deferring to the city as to what those goals are. Questions about liquor licensing, free-speech areas and even dog ownership were answered simply: “We are a longtime property owner in the area—our ownership originally goes back years as a welfare farm. However, what our role in any possible development in the area might be is undetermined until Salt Lake City has determined its master plan for the area.”
     As the LDS Church is the largest landowner, it seems only natural to inquire about the development through its property arms—Suburban Land Reserve and Property Reserve Inc. But questions sent to Carl Duke, property manager for SLR, were eventually fielded by the LDS Church’s communications department.
     Stephen Goldsmith, former planning director for the city, was surprised at the easy interface between the entities. “I’m looking at the ethical construct of this,” he puzzles. “As the church began to reorganize their for-profit side, they moved [real-estate development] into different hands, and they have worked very hard to differentiate their ecclesiastical side from their commercial side.”...
#486

Posted by: Quackalicious Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:55 AM

Great! Knockgoats actually looked at the Cochrane analysis of Therapeutic Touch and said it works. That was my point. It should be obvious that any touch therapy would be somewhat effective at pain relief, contrary to what a number of readers have been implying.

Negentropyeater writes: “200 complete morons apply to the really crap school for quacks and their admirers, school that only teaches how to become a certified quack. 100 of them are accepted, and because they are complete morons and aren't accepted elsewhere, all choose to attend that school.”

Wait a second! If everyone at BYU is a quack, does that mean that everyone that doesn’t agree with this website is a quack? If I’m going to be a quack, does that mean I now have to be a Mormon? I think we need a Myers ruling on the meaning of quack. Right now the internet is full of “Christopher Maloney is a quack” and if that means I’ll have to start defending the Mormon doctrine I need to know, because I haven’t been brushing up on my “golden tablets that I found in my backyard and now are mysteriously missing” theology.

Ol’ Greg: Ok, the patient was told “you have less than a week to live. Get your affairs in order.” The meaning is the same. This particular patient had ascites and her liver was failing. I told her to assertively demand draining for that ascites and that was the primary life lengthening measure. But the oncologist had not suggested the drainage as an option, while I did. I also encouraged the patient to not give up and to get a second opinion from Dana Farber. The Dana Farber consult gave her the courage to keep fighting the illness for months.

Josh, “white boy” is your official epithet. You are a sick, sick person. To even imagine that I would seek to deny any care possible to someone that ill. I regularly convince patients to continue even the most experimental conventional cancer treatments when they give any possibility of relief.

Brownian, OM: Great, a cancer surveillance specialist! Show me the studies that prove I kill patients. Not some newspaper story about some M.D. moonlighting in alt. med., but an actual medline study that shows licensed Naturopathic doctors are killing people. You have the credentials, and you have made some very nasty claims about me, so prove it.

By the way, “In contrast naturopaths, to the qi-harnessing last one of 'em, got into medicine because they were born of a holy union of Jesus and a rainbow” is a lovely image, but unfortunately fictitious. I will try to walk on water, just for you, if you prove a single thing you’re spewing.

For the rest of you, prove what you are saying. Don’t pretend that you’ve proven something somewhere “in the thread.” You haven’t, and you “rely on each other” for facts. It’s time to return to science and data rather than spewing derogatory comments that have no basis in fact. The only argument I have received was from Sastra, who told me I was using alt. med. Journal articles when I was citing Cochrane. If she doesn’t know the difference and none of the rest of you do either, then you aren’t qualified to make any judgments on medicine. Unqualified people making medical judgments- hmmm…are you all quacks?

#487

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 11:58 AM

Ok, so here's the Queen in all her animality and humanity.

I believe that would be illegal in Spain. (Not positive about the current state of the law or adherence to it, though.)

Addendum: SC, did you receive my email the other day?

Yes - will write back soon.

By the way, Josh, OSG, what's your email again?

#488

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:00 PM

Great! Knockgoats actually looked at the Cochrane analysis of Therapeutic Touch and said it works.
liar
#489

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:02 PM

Yes, SC, I guess you have a point about that.

I suppose we could have a monarchy elected for life, as they did in the Kingdom of Poland-Lithuania, for instance. They have a similar arrangement today in Samoa with the O le Ao o le Malo.

#490

Posted by: SteveV Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:03 PM

jenbphillips #472

'No Sunday school teachers of any age or gender are getting anywhere near either of my kids without supervision.'

When our son was about 6 (the lanky 42 year old git is sleeping on the sofa downstairs as I type), completely unprompted, asked if he could go to Sunday school. Miss M and I were a little concerned but considered that he should make up his own mind. Off he went the next Sunday and on his return said he would like to go again. The day arrived and off he went only to return about 20 minutes later. 'I don't believe any of that rubbish.' was his response. I don't think he noticed the sighs of relief from his parents.

We would not be so relaxed about it now, in fact I'm sure we would adopt your position.

#491

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:04 PM

By way of explanation of #489: this would enable us to keep the trappings of monarchy, and the role of a non-political head of state, without imposing the burden of inherited roles on people who don't choose them.

#492

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:06 PM

Hey Quackster, fake fraud and all around con man. Almost everything you put forward was debunked in 2009. Nothing like getting the proper number of patients, good double blind testing and other scientific rigor to make your "it works" become "its Placebo". That makes you worthless. So, lets see your more recent and more rigorous papers from as good journals.

You still need to find more honest work. Repo man comes to mind.

#493

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:11 PM

Unqualified people making medical judgments- hmmm…are you all quacks?

Ah, key point of difference here: we are not hanging out a shingle with the term "Dr." preceding our names and taking money from people for our unqualified medical judgments.

#494

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:14 PM

The analysis got stuck because a warning message about the almost full hdd popped up and stayed in the foreground. Windows is better at multitasking than Mac OS.

Republicans turned off by size of Obama's package

And the whole article is full of such metaphors X-D

Day saved!

I know that she is an instrument in God's hands to remind us of our troubles and to force us to our knees and be united as a couple

Sickening.

Just as it is unjust to tell poor people that they should know their place, it is wrong to insist to these people that this is who they are, and to put them in public positions toward which many are hostile, merely because of the family they were born into. It's wrong to do to them.

Especially sickening example: The Lion King.

(here is a copy if anyone is interested)

Ah, that one. Along with a lot of other people, I got a version of it from a professional linguist. It's much less bad than I could have imagined – some of the points do help, others might, leaving basically only the Vitamin C woo –, but, I mean, it's a chain e-mail.

possibly true... but I find the display and maintenance of restrictive native cultural traits for the sole purpose of selling "authenticity" to tourists distasteful, and unfair to those forced to play these roles for the gaping crowds.

LOL! So true…

Unqualified people making medical judgments- hmmm…are you all quacks?

The tu quoque argument is a logical fallacy. You still need to show you're not participating in fraud.

#495

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:17 PM

Carlie to Kw*k over at Hammond:

You’re going to be very busy trying to get all of that done. You’ll probably need a camera or something.

oh, man, I really laughed hard at that

#497

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:20 PM

I suppose we could have a monarchy elected for life

Why for life, and not for, say, 6 years (up to twice) like the president of Austria…?

#498

Posted by: Sastra Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:20 PM

Quackalicious #486 wrote:

The only argument I have received was from Sastra, who told me I was using alt. med. Journal articles when I was citing Cochrane.

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread, but noticed this and wanted to respond. My recollection is that my point re. the alt med journals was made after you had given a long list of support for TT -- which included the Cochrane report, but was not limited to it. There was at least one alt med source.

And, I don't think you ever addressed one of the other points I made, which was that strong, remarkable claims in science will need a large preponderance of evidence. Therapeutic Touch (which does not involve actual touching, so please stop implicitly lumping it in with massage or stroking) has not met anywhere near that level of evidence.

Here is a question I'd like to ask then, on this very point. If TT practitioners are really, truly using a unique form or energy, then why aren't the physicists interested in it? It's not enough to say that medicine is "not their area." Energy is their area, because reality is their area. If something in the design of a computer game was able to violate the Laws of Conservation, say, people in physics would not say that well, it's just a computer game, so we're not interested.

It all counts. It all hangs together, in science. Physics is a competitive, innovative, cutting edge area of intense study and interest. And yet, the very people who ought to be MOST interested in a "new" form of energy, are not.

How do you account for this? Especially when you say that this form of "healing energy" has been around for a long time?

#499

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:22 PM

They have a similar arrangement today in Samoa with the O le Ao o le Malo.

Five-year terms, according to Wikipedia.

By way of explanation of #489: this would enable us to keep the trappings of monarchy,

For the love of reason, why? Trappings, indeed. Societies can have emblems, songs, birds, flowers, what you you to represent them symbolically. They can have documents - by no means sacred or unchanging - that spell out their principles, organization, and basic rights. What on earth does any society need with the trappings of monarchy?

#500

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:24 PM

SteveV @490--good on him! and you, for letting him go. I did agree to let my 9 year old attend Sunday school/church with a friend a few months ago, after discussing the particulars of the denomination (very liberal and hellfire free) with the friend's mother. The report I got after the fact was that it was sort of boring and that he had amused himself by drawing cartoons of Charles Darwin all over the paperwork he was given. Turns out he had incorrectly deduced that all Christians rejected Evolution. Apparently, the Darwin vs. Jesus fish battles played out on various car bumpers around town and a book on Darwin he'd read recently that discussed the impact of his theory on the creationist beliefs of the day had informed this erroneous conclusion. So, the church visit provided an opportunity for discussion of these things, which is always valuable, I suppose.

I am trying to be really careful about letting them make up their own minds about faith, but I'm working hard to give them the intellectual tools to critically evaluate various truth claims they'll encounter now and in the future.

#501

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:26 PM

Why for life, and not for, say, 6 years (up to twice) like the president of Austria…?

Because life tenure contributes to complete independence from politics.

For the same reason, I wouldn't support direct popular election of the head of state. If we were going to go down this road, I would suggest that, on the death of a monarch, a new monarch should be elected by the House of Lords from among its members. Only crossbenchers (those peers who are not members of political parties) would be eligible to stand. This would ensure that the election was uninfluenced, as far as possible, by partisan politics, and would more-or-less completely replicate the existing status quo while eliminating the hereditary principle.

#502

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:34 PM

Because life tenure contributes to complete independence from politics.
lol... sure, just like the U.S. supreme court is free from politics. I mean, sure, they don't run for reelection, but pretending like "politics" are only about elections is kind of silly.
#503

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:36 PM

so please stop implicitly lumping it in with massage or stroking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGVnH39UzI8

#504

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:37 PM

Almost everything you put forward was debunked in 2009.

That's a great list I'll bookmark when I'll get home.

who are not members of political parties […] This would ensure that the election was uninfluenced, as far as possible, by partisan politics

Nowhere near. It's not like all sympathizers of a party were its members.

#505

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:40 PM

Jeez, just caught up @ Hammond. There are some un-be-lievable personality displays going on over there as per usual.
But I will limit my review to one example: The Commenter Whose Name I Usually Spell With Asterisks for Os quoth:

PZ Myers and Pharyngula have to be punished, and it’s now time for Science Blogs to pull the plug on Pharyngula. As I have noted earlier, freedom of speech doesn’t give you the absolute right to yell “Fire” in a crowded theater when there is no proof of fire occurring.

I will not comment on this quote, though I regard it as classic enough, in its manifold features of interest, to archive.

so: Quoted as Essence

[One of the reasons I will not comment is that the last few times I have made the mistake of engaging said c*mmenter directly, (s)he has made clear in her or his otherwise obtuse replies that (s)he has googled me up in real life, which...why would you make it a point to do that? It creeps me the fuck out sometimes.]

#506

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:49 PM

For the love of reason, why? Trappings, indeed. Societies can have emblems, songs, birds, flowers, what you you to represent them symbolically. They can have documents - by no means sacred or unchanging - that spell out their principles, organization, and basic rights. What on earth does any society need with the trappings of monarchy?

Hmmm. The answer to this is by no means simple, but I think there is one - for me, at least.

As I mentioned earlier, humanity has a very strong tribal instinct. Human beings like to divide themselves into groups along arbitrary lines, separating "us" from "them", and identify with their group to the exclusion of those outside it. This manifests itself in nationalism, religious sectarianism, racism and ethnocentrism, and in other more harmless contexts such as sports fandom. It's an instinct that can be seen in children from a young age, too. Teachers know that when you divide a school arbitrarily into "Houses" (a British tradition), or split a class into two teams for a competition, most of the kids will become very enthusiastic and competitive on behalf of "their" house or team. It's a bizarre and completely irrational phenomenon - and was always something I found completely inexplicable when I was a kid.

We need to recognise that the nation is one of the most powerful forms of this tribal self-identification. Look at its manifestations in speech: how often have you heard people using "we" and "us" in talking about their country's actions, even actions which occurred before they were even born? You will often hear Britons saying stuff like "we won the World Cup in 1966", or "we won the Second World War", and the like. Indeed, people do this kind of thing even when criticising their country's past actions; they might say that "we were wrong" to invade country X, or express some sort of personal shame and remorse at some harm their nation caused in the past. Nor is this kind of deep identification with the concept of the nation restricted to right-wing nationalists and jingoists, or to people who feel a special affection towards their own nation. Left-leaning people will often talk about the right to "national sovereignty" or "self-determination" of "a people", for instance - without explaining just how it is that the concept of "a people" is even coherent, or how we identify which groups constitute "peoples" possessing the right of self-determination.

I mention all this not because I think it's a good thing. I don't. I'm adamantly opposed to nationalism in all its varieties, and I find the tribal instinct bizarre and destructive. But we need to recognise that it is a very deeply-ingrained aspect of human behaviour. And with this in mind, people of a nationalist bent tend - especially in time of crisis - to identify on a deep emotional level with "their country", and, implicitly, with the leaders of their country. Hence why one heard conservatives, in the aftermath of 9/11, accusing liberal critics of the Bush administration of being "unpatriotic" at a time when "the country should be united behind the President." I assume you will agree with me that this kind of thinking is toxic and dangerous. At no time, however dire the circumstances, should a country's political leaders be beyond criticism. The idea that we should "unite behind our leaders" in time of "national crisis" is a very fast road to authoritarianism, tyranny, institutionalised discrimination and a range of other ills.

Does monarchy do anything to help this? Perhaps not, in practice - but it does provide an overtly non-political, "uniting" figure on whom this kind of tribal loyalty can be focused. It's very unhealthy for that kind of loyalty ever to be directed towards a party politician or an elected government.

#507

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:50 PM

Kausik Dauta just posted (a link to a link to*) this on another thread:

http://ataraxiatheatre.com/2010/03/12/what-erv-really-stands-for/

*(but I don't feel like linking to NN or Coturnix at the moment, so I'll go direct to the source)

#508

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 12:51 PM

Hmmm... reading it, I realise that #506 is not a terribly good argument for monarchy. But it's raised quite a few interesting points for other discussions, which I thought of as I was writing it.

#509

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:01 PM

Nerd's link @#492 also contains what I propose should become the symbolic flag of the Order of the Molly:

Not only does it include a translated reference to the honorary OM designation, but its rainbow typeface denotes inclusiveness and diversity. The radiance of the Molly is straightforwardly depicted, and all is cradled gently in the welcoming hands of Pharyngula, or teh Thread, maybe, or PZ when he forgets to trim his fingernails. We can work out the details later.

OK, the symbolism is apparently actually supposed to be about Reiki or some shit, but I personally have no ethical problems with nonprofit co-optation.

#510

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:03 PM

Ha! *pumps fist*

Total Allied HTML victory!

#512

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:15 PM

see also: lángos

That's what I was groping for! And in the clear light of day* I remember a big piece of it off which one pulled smaller pieces to rub with the garlic clove.

Once upon a time in the early '70s there was a Hungarian restaurant, Paprikas Fono, on the top story of Ghirardelli Square, a tourist trap made out of a chocolate factory in San Francisco. I remember it as pretty good.

That's where I had langos, and the joke on me was that I had to come all the way here from central and northeastern Pennsylvania to try a Hungarian food. (Google "Coal Region" and "anthracite region" for my roots.)

My ur-hometown, Girardville, has a big-deal annual St Paddy's Day parade; it's next weekend. Girardville has been mentioned here in connection with the pirate-lady statue that got the amusing attention of the parish priest.

The smart Micks, like my mother, learned to cook from their Italian friends among others. I still use Mom's Pa. Dutch cole-slaw recipe when I make cole slaw at all. It ain't angio-friendly but it's good.

I quite agree with 'Tis and others about the disaster of that old boy Padraig. I used to wear black and all my Celtic stuff on 3/17 but the best T-shirt is lately too tight. Maybe I'll just walk around with Shep the Snake on my neck, if the weather's warm enough.


Maybe I'll also take a garlic clove or two to the next powwow. They call them Wailaki tacos there because the stand and the divine entities who make frybread come down from the Round Valley rez for the occasion.

Best evah: The Wu:k Snack Shop across the plaza from the San Xavier del Bac mission south of Tucson. Those are Tohono O'odham.

#513

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:17 PM

I mention all this not because I think it's a good thing. I don't. I'm adamantly opposed to nationalism in all its varieties, and I find the tribal instinct bizarre and destructive. But we need to recognise that it is a very deeply-ingrained aspect of human behaviour. And with this in mind, people of a nationalist bent tend - especially in time of crisis - to identify on a deep emotional level with "their country", and, implicitly, with the leaders of their country. Hence why one heard conservatives, in the aftermath of 9/11, accusing liberal critics of the Bush administration of being "unpatriotic" at a time when "the country should be united behind the President." I assume you will agree with me that this kind of thinking is toxic and dangerous. At no time, however dire the circumstances, should a country's political leaders be beyond criticism. The idea that we should "unite behind our leaders" in time of "national crisis" is a very fast road to authoritarianism, tyranny, institutionalised discrimination and a range of other ills.

Does monarchy do anything to help this? Perhaps not, in practice - but it does provide an overtly non-political, "uniting" figure on whom this kind of tribal loyalty can be focused. It's very unhealthy for that kind of loyalty ever to be directed towards a party politician or an elected government.

This is silly, quite frankly. I don't find any aspects of "tribalism" bizarre and not all destructive. It's natural, but the destructive aspects (in which I don't include, say, debating or athletic competition) should be focused more toward play, and this should be emphasized, and cooperation should be encouraged. I don't think people should "unite around" anything other than what and whom they believe in, for good reasons. Not a government, not a state, not a nation, not a symbol of a nation, not a party,... And those organizations and actions we support should only be those in which we participate actively in democratic decision-making. (I think this can only really happen on the basis of confederations of smaller units.) You're simply encouraging the "unite behind our leaders" as "unite behind our 'nation', as symbolized by this person," rather than really challenging and trying to counteract that which you claim to find distasteful - the submissive and irrational uniting. And you still haven't responded to the question. Reasonable people can unite around a set or principles or rights or a political/economic program. You've presented no need for the "trappings of monarchy."

#514

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:18 PM

oo, ouch, brutal cut.
*shrug* I posted it for the sort-of on-topic nature of the intro and the one line at 2:13

#515

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:22 PM

Hmmm... reading it, I realise that #506 is not a terribly good argument for monarchy.

Oh, FFS. Now you tell me. :)

#516

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:23 PM

the one line at 2:13

...to which the answer turns out to be "no".

OK, gotta function

#517

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:28 PM

Yes, I should go, too. But first, JeffreyD:

Got the (non) answer I expected. Kw-k, I AM sorry you were hurt so deeply by being banned, the only reason I can see for this crusade. PZ and company MUST be punished? Frank would be disappointed in you.

:)

#518

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:40 PM

And those organizations and actions we support should only be those in which we participate actively in democratic decision-making.

I find this comment strange. What about those organisations which are not meant to be, and shouldn't be, democratic, yet have been major drivers of social progress and liberalisation? The greatest force for good in US political history, by miles, is undoubtedly the federal court system. It was the Supreme Court, not any democratically elected body, which ended racial segregation in schools, which guaranteed the right to contraception and to abortion, which eliminated sodomy laws, and which allowed interracial marriage. The record in Britain is less stark, but there are plenty of good examples of social progress being led by judges: from Lord Mansfield's famous anti-slavery dictum more than two centuries ago, to the 2004 decision in X v Secretary of State for the Home Department which ended the arbitrary detention without trial of foreign terror suspects at Belmarsh Prison, "Britain's Guantánamo". In all these cases, judges were able to make courageous and socially progressive decisions because they are not democratically elected, and don't answer to the mob.

By contrast, when "the people" make decisions, the result is usually a reversal of social progress, motivated by bigotry on the part of the majority: as with Proposition 8 in California, or the recent ban on minarets in Switzerland, or the fact that voters around Europe keep voting far-right and crypto-fascist parties into the legislature. For this reason, I don't see democracy as an unalloyed good, by any means. And I harbour far more "support" for the courts than I do for any kind of democratic process or institution. It doesn't matter to me that I don't personally get a say in the decisions of the courts; what I care about is the outcomes, and whether they make people's lives better and promote justice. Democracy has a lamentably bad record in this regard: because we live in a world where the average citizen is aggressively ignorant, prejudiced, and easily manipulated by demagogues.

In the end, we have to have political institutions which work with human nature as it is, not as we would like it to be. And to that end, while we should have some democracy in our political system, I don't see democracy either as the ideal form of government or as an inherently legitimising process. Some institutions and decisions should be outside democratic control. And I don't, therefore, think we should cast away existing political institutions in the name of "democracy". Again, this isn't necessarily an argument for the monarchy, since the monarchy has precisely no effect on any of the issues I've raised above; I'm going off on a tangent here, but I think it's interesting.

#519

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:44 PM

Jen @484

Lynna, what a disgusting story. I've just caught up on all the sources you linked to and bleeeeahhhhchhchcchchch. Being victimized that way to begin with is appalling enough, but to have the entire community fail to provide support or protection (except, apparently for the perpetrator) in the aftermath is scarcely comprehensible.
Yes, disgust and dismay are the appropriate responses. The religious nutters are playing this as if it were a one-off, uncommon and all that. That's a lie too. They're good at burying this kind of thing, but it's not uncommon.

This is the kind of society you get when 60 percent of the state's residents belong to a patriarchal cult, and more than 85 percent of the legislators also belong to the cult. And the cult does not recognize that it is a cult, despite email evidence from Tanya. Go, Tanya -- you revealed the cult-like qualities of mormonism quite by accident.

#520

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/7bP64dsCsNde3x.4t5pshK_WF4p8#86291 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:44 PM

David M,
Whilst we wait for SC to come up with some references to Anarchism may I suggest 3 books

1 Anarchism-a beginners guide by Ruth Kinna ISBN 10:1-85168-370-3

2 Demanding the impossible, A History of Anarchism by Peter Marshall ISBN 0 0068624504 (this is a doorstep of a book)

3 Anarchism by Peter Kroptokin ISBN0-486-41955-X( A Dover book by an anarchist genius.(This may be available online as I know SC has linked to some of Kroptokins writings in the past)

I have just order someworks by P-J Proudon and William Godwin from Amazon, these writers are 2 of the originators of Modern(?) anarchism.I would suggest going to Freedom Press and AK press (Google them) for suggestions as to other books

East_midlander

#521

Posted by: A. Noyd Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:45 PM

Quackalicious (#486)

Knockgoats actually looked at the Cochrane analysis of Therapeutic Touch and said it works.

Knockgoats said no such thing: "So here we have a Cochrane review, which says being touched may have a modest effect on pain relief. [Bold and underline added.]"

It should be obvious that any touch therapy would be somewhat effective at pain relief, contrary to what a number of readers have been implying.

No, it should not. Science exists because we can't rely on what's "obvious." You try to warp science into giving you confirmation for your pre-determined beliefs about the world. The difference between you and the rest of us? What makes us non-"quacks"? We take the world as it is.

We use science to discover how things work. If our hunches are right, that's exciting! If our hunches are wrong, that's exciting, too! We're not arrogant in the way you are because science can always show us we're wrong. Reality humbles us, whereas you will ignore whatever makes you wrong. Oh, sure, you'll give a little here and there and pat yourself on the back for being open-minded, but you're so stuck within this fantasy that you're some sort of healer that you won't risk letting reality in to shatter the alternative "medicine" framework it's built upon.

You're a parasite, is what you are. You borrow esteem from the work of real doctors and play pretend with your placebos. We don't need to "prove" it because science already says your alternative modalities are bogus. It's on you to show us otherwise. And you can't. You wow your "patients" with your handwaving, but you wowed yourself first; you don't understand that you're doing something wrong, so it fascinates you that we're not fooled by your cargo cult approach to science.

Reality, being the Grand Arbiter of All, that is what you must bow before in order to be accepted here. You must abandon what you wish to be true and become humble before what is. No clever redefinitions, no clinging to cherrypicked data, no hinting at conspiracies, no denial when you're shown that you're wrong, no twisting the words of others to support you. And no telling us your sure-to-confirm-your-beliefs approach to science and medicine are "how it's done" when there are professional scientists, students of science, and actual doctors among us. We know we can be wrong. But we also know that truth is not determined by whomever can bludgeon the rest into silence with his favored paradigm, bristling with assertions and dripping with the slime of special pleading.

So. Do you have what it takes to belong here or are you going to continue on as a spoiled brat with your playacting, finger-pointing, whinging and tantrums?

#522

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/7bP64dsCsNde3x.4t5pshK_WF4p8#86291 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:48 PM

Damn P-J Proudon=P-J Proudhon
East_midlander

#523

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:48 PM

I don't think people should "unite around" anything other than what and whom they believe in, for good reasons. Not a government, not a state, not a nation, not a symbol of a nation, not a party

I totally agree. Nonetheless, I think we must accept that they will do so - and hence design political systems that limit the damage and reduce the potential for demagoguery, populism and authoritarianism. I'm not saying constitutional monarchy always does this - anyone can think of counterexamples, starting with the fascist takeover in interwar Italy - but I think this is an argument, sometimes, for maintaining political institutions that have a proven track-record in this regard, of which the British constitutional order is certainly one.

#524

Posted by: Knockgoats Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:57 PM

but I think this is an argument, sometimes, for maintaining political institutions that have a proven track-record in this regard, of which the British constitutional order is certainly one. -Walton

Walton, you've been quite rightly expressing your outrage at the ever-increasing demagoguery, populism (w.r.t race and immigration) and authoritarianism of the UK government ever since you first posteed here. Exactly what has the monarchy done to impede the process?

*crickets*

#525

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/7bP64dsCsNde3x.4t5pshK_WF4p8#86291 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:57 PM

Yesterdays Feudal Times and Reactionary Herald in one of its usual thoughtful editorials, ¹ observed “that it was unusual to see a young person showing such perspicacious loyalty to the finer things in life as the person known as Walton. His valiant battle to demonstrate the wondrous nature of the Crown to the disloyal American rebels is a sight to behold. His defence of Our Sovereign Lady Elizabeth is to be commended. Of course we still believe that the disloyal American rebels may come to their senses and return to the British family and swear allegiance to the Crown again. We would observe that such an act would mean that the extinction of those mountebanks who call themselves “Republicans” and their scurrilous opponents the so called “Democrats” and result in more voters for the loyal socialist party or our conservatives both of whom have a deeper understanding of political theory and loyalty”
¹For those non English readers of this blog see the links below for edification, Britons of a certain age may remember Peter Simple and Way of the World.


Peter Simple

Heinz Kiosk et al

Joking aside, there is a solid case to abolish the monarchy in Britain, and replace it with a written constitution which firmly defines the state as a secular one and also to
Define the electorate as the fundamental basis of sovereign power and to prevent politicians ceding power to unelected bodies. An even better case can be made to dissolve the UK and similar bodies and devolve power to the lowest possible level where decisions be made by consensus. Indeed the abolition of “political power” should be our target and society run by social consensus

East_midlander

#526

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 1:59 PM

Knockgoats actually looked at the Cochrane analysis of Therapeutic Touch and said it works.

Holy Shit! That there's a hell of a lie! Do you think it's a real reading comprehension fail? Knockgoats' post was pretty clear.

Eh... Kill file, meet the Quackster. You guys are going to be great friends I can tell already :D

#527

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:04 PM

I totally agree. Nonetheless, I think we must accept that they will do so - and hence design political systems that limit the damage and reduce the potential for demagoguery, populism and authoritarianism.

We should have political systems and cultures that encourage us not to do so. You're accepting nationalism, you just prefer a certain flavor. A monarch is supposed to embody a country, and I don't accept that a country (nation-state) is something people should unite around in the first place.

I'm not saying constitutional monarchy always does this - anyone can think of counterexamples, starting with the fascist takeover in interwar Italy - but I think this is an argument, sometimes, for maintaining political institutions that have a proven track-record in this regard, of which the British constitutional order is certainly one.

Tell that to the rest of the fucking world, Walton.

In any case, didn't you just acknowledge that hereditary monarchies were unjust? So even if it were the case that it had "reduce[d] the potential for demagoguery, populism and authoritarianism," it would have done so at a human cost and in a way contrary to your stated principles. In keeping with your principles, you can only advocate elected ceremonial monarchs. So any track record has to be of those, and it's quite clear that people can (and should) get along without them.

#528

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/7bP64dsCsNde3x.4t5pshK_WF4p8#86291 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:04 PM

Double Damn those links should lead to the sites below, just cut and paste please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wharton

=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Peter_Simple%27s_characters”

I shall now hide in shame

East_midlander

#529

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:12 PM

A. Noyd:

are you going to continue on as a spoiled brat with your playacting, finger-pointing, whinging and tantrums?

I'm going with this ^ option.

#530

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:12 PM

Carlie to Kw*k over at Hammond:

I put my full support behind the Hammond reference for that place.

#531

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:12 PM

Well, Kevin Garn (he of hot-tubbing with 15-year-old-girl fame) has just resigned. Apparently, the public condemnation of his treatment and his wife's treatment of the girl finally had an effect. His fellow legislators may support him, but comments from the public are trending the other way. The Salt Lake Tribune is reporting the resignation, but the scrappy Salt Lake City Weekly should take credit for digging into the details with a four-page story.

#532

Posted by: Knockgoats Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:18 PM

And those organizations and actions we support should only be those in which we participate actively in democratic decision-making. (I think this can only really happen on the basis of confederations of smaller units.) - SC, OM

If a democratic decision is made to delegate decision-making power on specific issues and periods of time to individuals, small groups, or even computers, I can't see the problem, so long as the "assembly of all" remains the source of this power and can revoke the delegation. As for "can only really happen on the basis of confederations of smaller units", (a) This may have had some force before worldwide effectively instantaneous communication, but I see none now; (b) It seems to me incoherent: if decisions on larger scales are made on the basis of confederation, this implies the election of representatives or delegates (representatives vote as they choose, delegates are mandated), and everyone else is not participating actively; and (c) Indirect election of any kind is liable to be manipulated from the centre.

The greatest force for good in US political history, by miles, is undoubtedly the federal court system. It was the Supreme Court, not any democratically elected body, which ended racial segregation in schools, which guaranteed the right to contraception and to abortion, which eliminated sodomy laws, and which allowed interracial marriage. - Walton

In all these cases, the decisions of the Supreme court followed an intensive grass-roots political campaign by those adversely affected and their allies.

An even better case can be made to dissolve the UK and similar bodies and devolve power to the lowest possible level where decisions be made by consensus. - East_midlander

No, it can't. In practice, "decisions made by consensus" mean "decisions made by those prepared to sit through tedious meetings longest".

#533

Posted by: Knockgoats Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:25 PM

Knockgoats actually looked at the Cochrane analysis of Therapeutic Touch and said it works. - Quackalicious@486

Quack, I quoted the conclusion of the review: "may have a modest effect on pain relief". That you can turn this into "it works" indicates both how dishonest and how stupid you are: it's unwise to lie when your lies are easily checked by anyone who cares to look. It makes it clear to everyone that nothing whatever you say is to be trusted.

#534

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:26 PM

I put my full support behind the Hammond reference for that place.
Agreed. It's inspired.

I can't read any further over there. The repeated references to "Stu’s abysmal advocacy of raping Sheril and then killing her, Chris and others (probably myself included)."* make me want to bust something.

Apparently, the public condemnation of his treatment and his wife's treatment of the girl finally had an effect.
Well three cheers for reason. That is good news.

*That's Kw*k in Hammond comment # 258, for the record.

#535

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:28 PM

Woman dies during religious fast...a 55-year-old woman died alone in a bedroom of her central Florida home after locking herself in the room for several weeks for a lengthy religious fast.
     Evelyn Boyd told her husband, a preacher at a Pentecostal church in the city of Bartow, not to disturb her when she locked herself in the room Feb. 7 to fast and pray with only water to drink. Family members forced open the door March 5 and found her dead.
...The woman's husband, John Boyd, told the paper he didn't check on his wife because she felt she was doing what God called her to do and he wanted to respect her privacy.

#536

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:28 PM

In all these cases, the decisions of the Supreme court followed an intensive grass-roots political campaign by those adversely affected and their allies.

Yes - and I don't mean to downplay the fantastic work of several non-profit groups, particularly the ACLU, in campaigning for the right decision in many of these cases - but, in general, those affected by illiberal laws, and their allies, weren't in the numerical majority. If they had been, they could have won their rights through the democratic process rather than the courts. The role of the unelected court remains central, however you look at it - and I think it's beyond doubt that if the judges of the SCOTUS were directly elected by the people, as many state judges are, half a century of social progress would likely be reversed in just a few years. In the end, as counter-intuitive as it seems, giving certain areas of power to nine legal scholars has produced, on average, better outcomes than giving that power to the voting public - and if we are serious about building a better world, not in some aspirational future but in the present reality, we need to look at outcomes rather than process.

#537

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:29 PM

Kg, you're right. The parenthetical remark should have deleted as I almost did. It was intended to counter the acceptance of the nation-state model, but didn't address the contemporary possibilities, which I ordinarily would. Stupid.

#538

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:31 PM

Thunderfoot has a new video out: The Internet: Where religions come to die

#539

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:31 PM

I put my full support behind the Hammond reference for that place.
Agreed. It's brilliant. I don't think I can venture into the carnage again, though. The breathtaking inanity* of comments like "Stu’s abysmal advocacy of raping Sheril and then killing her, Chris and others (probably myself included)."** make me want to bust something.
Apparently, the public condemnation of his treatment and his wife's treatment of the girl finally had an effect.
Three cheers for rationality. That is good news.


*Yeah, I said it.
**That's Kw*k in Hammond comment #258, for the record.

#540

Posted by: jenbphillips Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:33 PM

Oh crap, sorry for the borked html and double post. I cancelled, refreshed and didn't see it.

#541

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:34 PM

SC, in light of what I said at #518 et seq., I find it hard to understand why you place so much emphasis on democracy.

#542

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:36 PM

SteveV #470

Thanks for the correction. I was sure that since St. Patrick was bad for Ireland, he came from England, which as we all know is the source of all Irish badness. At least that's what the Irish say.

Incidentally, do you know how Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland? He gathered all the snakes together and said: "Any of you who want to stay, raise your hand."

Thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

#543

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:37 PM

Quackalicious #486,

Wait a second! If everyone at BYU is a quack, does that mean that everyone that doesn’t agree with this website is a quack?

Reading helps for comprehension.

My comment #113 was not related to the level of quackitude at BYU (which I ignore), but to the value of a measure of "popularity" as defined by the U.S. News & World Report survey. I gave a hypothetical example where a school for quacks entirely populated by complete morons could have 100% "popularity".

#544

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:37 PM

I put my full support behind the Hammond reference for that place.

I just can't. It's too sad. Maybe that's because relatives died in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_circus_fire

#545

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:39 PM

@SC, OM -

My email is spokesgay at gmail.

#547

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:45 PM

The OM sign is beautiful!

#548

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:49 PM

@Quackalooney, #486 -

Josh, “white boy” is your official epithet. You are a sick, sick person.

My "official epithet?" I don't think that word means what you think it means. Yes my dear, I am a white boy, and very, very sick. But what does that have to do with anything? If you're going to insult me, please be clever about it.

#549

Posted by: Louis Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:51 PM

Lynna #535,

Very sad. Very stupid, but also very sad. I used to debate with a "John Boyd" many (~10) years ago on the MSN boards (or maybe it was T.O., I forget). He wasn't a bad bloke, so I hope it's not his wife. Well to be honest I'd hope, whilst I'm hoping for things, that it's no one's wife and this sort of thing never happened, but I'll start small and work up to that.

Louis

#550

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:54 PM

SC, in light of what I said at #518 et seq., I find it hard to understand why you place so much emphasis on democracy.

What a strange thing to say. In light of what you said, you don't understand my position? I didn't even see that comment, but I just skimmed it and it's nothing but a series of unsupported claims. Further, it's talking about specific forms of representative democracy in state systems within a global capitalist system.* Have you noticed that I advocate none of this?

In any case, I'm not getting sucked into one of these abstract discussions, whether you find it interesting or not. You're historically and sociologically/anthropologically ignorant.

You've been supporting monarchies, and the British specifically, for quite some time now. Based on what you said above, will you acknowledge that you do not now advocate hereditary monarchies or not? If not, how does forcing people into that without their choice square with your principles?

*(ignoring rights-enshrining documents altogether, apparently)

#551

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 2:56 PM

Walton #518,

or the fact that voters around Europe keep voting far-right and crypto-fascist parties into the legislature

Oh because you think the SCOTUS stops far right crypto-fascist parties from taking government control ?

Remind me what happened with the first BushII election ?

#552

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/7bP64dsCsNde3x.4t5pshK_WF4p8#86291 Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:03 PM

Knockgoats,
"An even better case can be made to dissolve the UK and similar bodies and devolve power to the lowest possible level where decisions be made by consensus. - East_midlander

No, it can't. In practice, "decisions made by consensus" mean "decisions made by those prepared to sit through tedious meetings longest"."

so, organise the meetings so that they are not "tedious".remember the much vaunted democracy can be oppression, ask the catholics in Northern Ireland, before the Good Friday agreement they were routinly out-voted on a First past the post system. If PR results in a permanent minority this can be just as oppressive.Consensus might be slow and tedious but it maximises agreement and reduces oppression. I will agree that some rights can and must be over-ridden, oppressive belifs such as racism should be brought into the open and faced down even if this requires oppressive control. There is no justification for discriminating against some one on those grounds which are beyond their control, Race, sexuality and natal gender( no-one controls whom their natal parents are)

East_midlander

#553

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:07 PM

Walton,

I dislike nationalismhereditary monarchies, in the sense that I hate the attitude that a person's rights, duties and life chances should be defined exclusively by the accident of his or her nationalityfamily of birth.

Fixed that for ya ;)

The role of the unelected court remains central, however you look at it - and I think it's beyond doubt that if the judges of the SCOTUS were directly elected by the people, as many state judges are, half a century of social progress would likely be reversed in just a few years.

The era of a socially progressive court was an anomaly in SCOTUS history. We're already seeing the consequences of the end of that era. The recent Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission and Ledbetter v. Goodyear are excellent examples of reversing social progress. Congress will have to act to rectify these two horrible decisions.

The lifetime appointment of SCOTUS justices means that we will have a major extremely right-wing voting block for many years to come. Obama has shown that he doesn't have the balls to nominate liberals to counter the Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts block, so I have very little hope that social progress will come from the SCOTUS any time soon.

#554

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:08 PM

What a strange thing to say. In light of what you said, you don't understand my position? I didn't even see that comment, but I just skimmed it and it's nothing but a series of unsupported claims. Further, it's talking about specific forms of representative democracy in state systems within a global capitalist system.* Have you noticed that I advocate none of this?

Sorry, poor wording on my part. What I was trying to say is that I wanted you to answer the criticisms of democracy I made at #518.

I don't know quite what you want. When I talk in general terms rather than using specific examples, you tell me that you're not interested in abstractions. But when I cite actual specific real-world examples of where democracy has produced awful results, and non-democratic (principally judicial) forms of decision-making have produced concrete social progress and liberalisation, you tell me that these examples are "specific forms of representative democracy in state systems within a global capitalist system".

Are you going to explain how your desired form of participatory democracy would make things better? How would it overcome the ignorance, bigotry and prejudice that afflict large numbers of voters in actual real-world democracies? I don't think this is an "abstract" discussion at all. I'm arguing that in the real world, too much rule by "the people" leads to the tyranny of the majority, authoritarian and illiberal measures, and the institutionalisation of bigotry. By contrast, the enshrinement of constitutional rights, and their enforcement by a (non-elected) independent judiciary, has tended to produce better outcomes in the real world.

#555

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:10 PM

Walton #518,

Again, this isn't necessarily an argument for the monarchy, since the monarchy has precisely no effect on any of the issues I've raised above; I'm going off on a tangent here, but I think it's interesting.

I think it's been about two days since you've started spouting nonsense about the benefits of monarchy, of life-long apolitical ceremonial head of state, and God knows what, and you still haven't managed to find one single argument to justify your "firm belief" that monarchy was better ?

You know what I call people who can't seem to justify their "firm beliefs" but keep going on and on about their merits ? Faith-heads.

#556

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:17 PM

The era of a socially progressive court was an anomaly in SCOTUS history. We're already seeing the consequences of the end of that era. The recent Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission and Ledbetter v. Goodyear are excellent examples of reversing social progress. Congress will have to act to rectify these two horrible decisions.

As Ed Brayton, among others, has highlighted, Citizens United was nowhere near as bad a decision as a lot of people have been (hyperbolically) claiming. In the end, there is always a delicate balance to be struck between protecting free speech under the First Amendment - which does include the freedom of individuals to band together in corporations and use them as vehicles for speech - and respecting the right of Congress to impose campaign finance restrictions in order to prevent the wealthiest interests dominating the political process. It was already established by previous decisions that the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech applies to corporate speech; the ruling in Citizens United was neither surprising, nor necessarily wrong.

#557

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:23 PM

I think it's been about two days since you've started spouting nonsense about the benefits of monarchy, of life-long apolitical ceremonial head of state, and God knows what, and you still haven't managed to find one single argument to justify your "firm belief" that monarchy was better ?

I tried. I even posted a link to a whole page of such arguments.

I knew I'd be fighting a losing battle on this one. And I do recognise the strength of SC's point about the unfairness of the system, as regards royal heirs born into a role in the public eye that they may not like or want.

But I like monarchy, and I respect the Queen deeply on a personal level. At the very least, I don't think there's any need to consider any change during the remainder of her lifetime.

#558

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:24 PM

The Everlasting Thread™, where the discussion can go from genitalia to abolition of the British monarchy. Gotta love it. :-)

#559

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:26 PM

Sorry, poor wording on my part. What I was trying to say is that I wanted you to answer the criticisms of democracy I made at #518.

First, I have no desire to do so. Second, again, your understanding of "democracy" is not mine.

I don't know quite what you want. When I talk in general terms rather than using specific examples, you tell me that you're not interested in abstractions.

I'm not interested in having abstract discussions of politics on this blog.

But when I cite actual specific real-world examples of where democracy has produced awful results, and non-democratic (principally judicial) forms of decision-making have produced concrete social progress and liberalisation,

You've made claims using hand-picked examples concerning a specific type of democracy.

you tell me that these examples are "specific forms of representative democracy in state systems within a global capitalist system".

Because they are. That's a form of democracy, and of course better than less democratic alternatives, but not what I'm advocating. Not that you're not wrong about it, or democracy in general, anyway.

Are you going to explain how your desired form of participatory democracy would make things better? How would it overcome the ignorance, bigotry and prejudice that afflict large numbers of voters in actual real-world democracies? I don't think this is an "abstract" discussion at all.

Of course it is. I've discussed specific movements and organizations - historical and contemporary - in the past, and when I'm in the mood to debate them I do. My choice.

I'm arguing that in the real world, too much rule by "the people" leads to the tyranny of the majority, authoritarian and illiberal measures, and the institutionalisation of bigotry.

And you're wrong. And it's due to your lack of knowledge about the real world.

By contrast, the enshrinement of constitutional rights, and their enforcement by a (non-elected) independent judiciary, has tended to produce better outcomes in the real world.

This is a bizarre non-comparison. The constitutional enshrinement of rights and democratic practice are of course not antithetical.

Again, are you going to acknowledge that hereditary monarchy goes against your principles with regard to individual freedom?

#560

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:30 PM

In the end, there is always a delicate balance to be struck between protecting free speech under the First Amendment - which does include the freedom of individuals to band together in corporations and use them as vehicles for speech - and respecting the right of Congress to impose campaign finance restrictions in order to prevent the wealthiest interests dominating the political process.

The First Amendment does no such thing. Applying the protections of the First Amendment to corporate speech requires the acceptance of the obiter dictum in Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, that corporations are entitled to the same protections under the law as individuals. Some of the justices have made it clear that they do not feel constrained by earlier court rulings, but they make no effort to overturn more than a century of unconstitutionally granting corporations the rights of individuals. We have a SCOTUS majority that believes in protecting corporate interests through jurisprudence while trampling the interests and rights of the people.

I noticed that you commented on the Citizens United decision but not Ledbetter v. Goodyear. Why?

#561

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:31 PM

Again, are you going to acknowledge that hereditary monarchy goes against your principles with regard to individual freedom?

I don't know. All I can say is that I like and deeply respect the Queen, and for as long as she is willing to continue serving our country in her present capacity, there is no reason to change. There might be an argument for changes to the current hereditary system after that.

#562

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:33 PM

But I like monarchy

Good grief. Is there a foot stomp and quivering lip that go along with this?

#563

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:37 PM

Just for Walton and/or SC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9UxevnYcec

#564

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:51 PM

Da Pope is being set up!

The Vatican spokesman, speaking to Vatican Radio and Associated Press Television News, defended Benedict.

"It's rather clear that in the last days, there have been those who have tried, with a certain aggressive persistence, in Regensburg and Munich, to look for elements to personally involve the Holy Father in the matter of abuses," the Rev. Federico Lombardi told Vatican Radio.

"For any objective observer, it's clear that these efforts have failed," Lombardi said, reiterating his statement a day earlier noting the Munich diocese has insisted that Benedict wasn't involved in the decision while archbishop there to transfer the suspected child abuser.

Lombardi told The AP that "there hasn't been in the least bit any policy of silence."

"The pope is a person whose stand on clarity, on transparency and whose decision to face these problems is above discussion," Lombardi said, citing the comments by Scicluna, who works in the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, which was long headed by Benedict before his election as pontiff.

"To accuse the current pope of hiding (cases) is false and defamatory," Scicluna said. As Vatican cardinal in charge of the policy on sex abuse, the future pope "showed wisdom and firmness in handling these cases," Scicluna said.

#565

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 3:56 PM

As Vatican cardinal in charge of the policy on sex abuse, the future pope "showed wisdom and firmness in handling these cases," Scicluna said.

In other words, "Nasty Ratzi shuffled the molesters around in approved fashion, and his actions are above discussion!"

*spits*

#566

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:08 PM

Yeah, who know that the Catholics and the Mormons had so much in common? Better to have the appearance of moral superiority, force the victims to be quiet and allow their predators to roam free than to actually punish those who abuse their position of power.

#567

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:11 PM

Walton

It's just a traditional institution that does no harm

So you think no harm is caused by claiming your family to be chosen by "God", or by calling yourself "Defender of The Faith", or by being so intimately connected with the CofE that you have to be crowned by the Archbishop of Canterbury?
You think no harm is done by having an unelected "Heir to the Throne" using his position to promote and support religious beliefs, as well as various quackeries and "woo"s?
You think no harm is done by the monarchy being so strongly linked to the British Armed Forces, and that link then being used to attempt to prop up support for unpopular and divisive foreign wars?
You think no harm is done by having Britain being represented by the richest woman on Earth, and by the head of the family of the biggest landowners in Britain? A family that, despite its fabulous wealth, still thinks it is entitled to state handouts and special treatment, and whose junior members treat public assets as their own (military helicopters etc).
You think no harm is done by Britain being represented abroad by someone like Philip, with his long history of crass racism and offensive remarks?

Personally, I'm ashamed to be represented on the world stage by a politically and religiously divisive, disfunctional, unrepresentative, unelected family of spongeing parasites who have virtually no comprehension of ordinary life, and who think the world smells of fresh paint.
Give me someone like David Attenborough, or Stephen Hawking, as Head of State anyday.

#568

Posted by: negentropyeater Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:13 PM

But I like monarchy, and I respect the Queen deeply on a personal level.

Well that was clear from the begining.
That reminds me of my grandmother when she says:
But I like the church, and I respect the Pope deeply on a personal level.
Then I know there is no point discussing further about this.

#569

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:27 PM

Janine:

Better to have the appearance of moral superiority, force the victims to be quiet and allow their predators to roam free than to actually punish those who abuse their position of power.

When it comes to the catholic church, if all those who abused their position of power were brought to justice, the vatican would be empty. Not that I'd have a problem with that.

Until catholics at large shed their cognitive dissonance and denounce the criminals for what they are, that viperous nest is going to stay in business.

#570

Posted by: Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM Author Profile Page | March 13, 2010 4:27 PM

But I like monarchy, and I respect the Queen deeply on a personal level.